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Qui Gon tells the council in Anakin's presence that he is the chosen one. He stridently tells Anakin that he will be a Jedi no matter what and that he is special. Do you think that may have greatly influenced Anakin as being an arrogant Jedi padawan with delusions of his own greatness.

If Anakin was not told any of this and was simply a padawan in the crowd that Obi Wan trained would he have been a more different person - grateful that he was rescued from Tatooine, more willing to listen to Obi Wan and be obedient out of a sense of respect to want to do better. He doesn't know he's great or that he's chosen so he doesn't always strive to do better than others and compare himself to Yoda in dueling and that he was better than his master in some areas.

Did Qui Gon sow those seeds of Anakin's arorgance and his eventual fall?

And even though I feel a topic like this shouldn't need it - PLEASE NO ROTS SPOILERS

I agree Qui-gon did make open the door to Anakins arogance. But the Jedi council only made it worse be acknowledging and rubber stamping Qui-gon's belief.

In terms of psychological profiles, Anakin is my favorite character in the saga and that is where we'll begin.

To analyze what made Anakin tick, we have to examine what led him to get off Tatooine in the first place. Yes, he won his freedom, but he was forced to leave Shimi behind and vowed that he would return to her and in turn free her.

So, therein lies his ulterior motive for joining the Order, to gain the power necessary to free his mother. Now, if he had progressed normally, he might have been able to do it eventually. However, Qui-Gon's public beliefs and the Council's bumbling planted in him the idea that he was special and that he should and could progress faster, allowing him to rescure Shimi all the more quickly.

As I see it, it's like the Force; it's about keep the two sides balance: his need for purpose in life and his need for power. Of course, Anakin blows it in AOTC and is left an orphan. Without that purpose, the need for power threatens to consume him and leave him in the darkness. But as Mike points out in the main site, Padme is there, her necklace representing her as his anchor to hummanity and his rommance with her thus giving him a new purpose in life.

That's as far as I'll go so as to honor your no-ROTS spoilers request, Stravo. I'll end it by coming back to Qui-Gon. I've always personally seen a hint of a mid-life crisis in Qui-Gon. Having been trained under Dooku's cynical nature, he saw what the Council could not, that the Republic was falling apart and that it would take the Jedi Order down with it. In his mind, Anakin represented the possible key to saving both orginizations.

Either way Qui-Gon's beliefs and actions changed the course of galactic civilization forever. So the answer is no, Anakin shouldn't have known he was Chosen.

Well, he DID bring balance to the force

While a contribution, I doubt it would've mattered. He would've seen his burgeoning powers, and that he was phenomally better then his peers would've already drove his ego to near Chosen level feelings anyway.

The fulcrum would be removing say Palpatine's influence or Padme's influence from the equation to see which way would've the chips fallen.

Ghost Rider wrote:While a contribution, I doubt it would've mattered. He would've seen his burgeoning powers, and that he was phenomally better then his peers would've already drove his ego to near Chosen level feelings anyway.

The fulcrum would be removing say Palpatine's influence or Padme's influence from the equation to see which way would've the chips fallen.

Additionally, his exceptionally late recruitment into the Order would have influenced his attitude. In order to be recruited at such an advanced age, there would have to be something special about him, a vibe that he would definitely have picked up from the others.

My main problem with the Jedi is why did the let Obi-Wan train the chosen one. Surely Mace or Yoda would have done a far better job. Its hard to imagine that if they were more involved early on that Palpatine would be allowed to have as much influence. Have one of the 'real' masters train Anakin out on the Rim far from the lights of Courscant. I mean come on is your best buds with the ruler of the Galaxy, how can you not be arrogant.

Spartan wrote:My main problem with the Jedi is why did the let Obi-Wan train the chosen one. Surely Mace or Yoda would have done a far better job. Its hard to imagine that if they were more involved early on that Palpatine would be allowed to have as much influence. Have one of the 'real' masters train Anakin out on the Rim far from the lights of Courscant. I mean come on is your best buds with the ruler of the Galaxy, how can you not be arrogant.

But how would Mace or Yoda do any better? Palpatine's influence was one of such a benign appearance that it took until much later for the Jedi to begin to appear any duplicity.

In fact, it gives more the thought that he did it on his own and the Jedi simpley gave silent approval because it's an insider in Palpatine's camp as is.

Also just going "Take him to the boonies!" would actually not make it that much better the instant he comes into contact with the Jedi Order in general, he'll see he's better and then the arrogance would've come from there. Anakin was basically screwed because he was trained later, had little to no true self discipline and combined with his far above average abilites would mean his arrogance would've come out sooner or later.

It's one of the reasons Yoda doesn't want Luke trained earlier...he knows this was a primary downfall of Anakin. If Anakin had already a self discpline already within him even before the Order, he would've been better able to circumvent the pitfalls

But how would Mace or Yoda do any better? Palpatine's influence was one of such a benign appearance that it took until much later for the Jedi to begin to appear any duplicity.

In fact, it gives more the thought that he did it on his own and the Jedi simpley gave silent approval because it's an insider in Palpatine's camp as is.

I hadn't thought of it that way. It would certainly explain why they're so hands off with Anakin. I take issue with Obi-wan not knowing where his pupil is or what he's doing, he was Anakin's guardian after all.

I still have to think though that the Council just didn't want to be bothered. I mean Yoda has tenue, a swank crib, and a cushie job. No reason he'd want to take on training the chosen one.

Also just going "Take him to the boonies!" would actually not make it that much better the instant he comes into contact with the Jedi Order in general, he'll see he's better and then the arrogance would've come from there. Anakin was basically screwed because he was trained later, had little to no true self discipline and combined with his far above average abilites would mean his arrogance would've come out sooner or later.

Yeah. The anchient Jedi order had a better handle on things, taking fully functioning adults as trainees made far more sense.

But was Anakin really that much more powerful than other Jedi? In AOTC he did not impress me more than say Obi Wan who took on Jango Fett and penetrated the defenses on Geonosis. He seemed to be along the same level as Obi Wan in TPM. Save that Obi Wan in TPM was a better deulist IMO.

Stravo wrote:But was Anakin really that much more powerful than other Jedi? In AOTC he did not impress me more than say Obi Wan who took on Jango Fett and penetrated the defenses on Geonosis. He seemed to be along the same level as Obi Wan in TPM. Save that Obi Wan in TPM was a better deulist IMO.

Raw power vs. age and experience- Anakin was still a padawan at the time. Furthermore, he missed out on the training that the average Jedi receives from infancy onward, as per Dark Rendezvous.

Petrosjko wrote:

Stravo wrote:But was Anakin really that much more powerful than other Jedi? In AOTC he did not impress me more than say Obi Wan who took on Jango Fett and penetrated the defenses on Geonosis. He seemed to be along the same level as Obi Wan in TPM. Save that Obi Wan in TPM was a better deulist IMO.

Raw power vs. age and experience- Anakin was still a padawan at the time. Furthermore, he missed out on the training that the average Jedi receives from infancy onward, as per Dark Rendezvous.

Obi Wan was only a padawan and he started his training out late as well, Qui Gon picked him at the very last chance that Obi Wan could have been accepted as a padawan learner before being shipped off as a healer or some nonsense.

I just don't think GL pulled off the "Oh my god Anakin is sooo much more powerful." I mean there should have been at least a few throw away lines of scenes where Anakin displays insights or abilities beyond Obi Wan or Obi Wan could have said "I never taught you that." Instead I get the sense that Obi Wan padawan could probably kick Ani's ass in a duel.

Stravo wrote:

Petrosjko wrote:

Stravo wrote:But was Anakin really that much more powerful than other Jedi? In AOTC he did not impress me more than say Obi Wan who took on Jango Fett and penetrated the defenses on Geonosis. He seemed to be along the same level as Obi Wan in TPM. Save that Obi Wan in TPM was a better deulist IMO.

Raw power vs. age and experience- Anakin was still a padawan at the time. Furthermore, he missed out on the training that the average Jedi receives from infancy onward, as per Dark Rendezvous.

Obi Wan was only a padawan and he started his training out late as well, Qui Gon picked him at the very last chance that Obi Wan could have been accepted as a padawan learner before being shipped off as a healer or some nonsense.

I just don't think GL pulled off the "Oh my god Anakin is sooo much more powerful." I mean there should have been at least a few throw away lines of scenes where Anakin displays insights or abilities beyond Obi Wan or Obi Wan could have said "I never taught you that." Instead I get the sense that Obi Wan padawan could probably kick Ani's ass in a duel.

Without going into what they did. RoTS gives Anakin a huge power boost. How much is translated onto the screen will be debateable, but the way the novel describes him, he's the best thing practically in the Jedi Order next to sliced bread for man.

Stravo wrote:Obi Wan was only a padawan and he started his training out late as well, Qui Gon picked him at the very last chance that Obi Wan could have been accepted as a padawan learner before being shipped off as a healer or some nonsense.

I just don't think GL pulled off the "Oh my god Anakin is sooo much more powerful." I mean there should have been at least a few throw away lines of scenes where Anakin displays insights or abilities beyond Obi Wan or Obi Wan could have said "I never taught you that." Instead I get the sense that Obi Wan padawan could probably kick Ani's ass in a duel.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuh. Didn't read your post carefully enough. My bad.

The difference is that Anakin came in as a padawan with far less (read: none whatsoever) basic training than the average padawan. Jedi training is very intense, as they nurture the connection their trainees have with the Force to the point of being completely instinctual.

That said, you're totally right that GL should have done more to demonstrate why Anakin is a prodigy.

Stravo wrote:

Petrosjko wrote:

Stravo wrote:But was Anakin really that much more powerful than other Jedi? In AOTC he did not impress me more than say Obi Wan who took on Jango Fett and penetrated the defenses on Geonosis. He seemed to be along the same level as Obi Wan in TPM. Save that Obi Wan in TPM was a better deulist IMO.

Raw power vs. age and experience- Anakin was still a padawan at the time. Furthermore, he missed out on the training that the average Jedi receives from infancy onward, as per Dark Rendezvous.

Obi Wan was only a padawan and he started his training out late as well, Qui Gon picked him at the very last chance that Obi Wan could have been accepted as a padawan learner before being shipped off as a healer or some nonsense.

I just don't think GL pulled off the "Oh my god Anakin is sooo much more powerful." I mean there should have been at least a few throw away lines of scenes where Anakin displays insights or abilities beyond Obi Wan or Obi Wan could have said "I never taught you that." Instead I get the sense that Obi Wan padawan could probably kick Ani's ass in a duel.

There are a few scenes in AOTC where Anakin does show superiority to Obi-Wan. In the chase of the changeling assassin, Anakin demonstrates the ability to see the future accurately enough to take a "shortcut" and jump out of a speeder to land on their quarry precisely. Anakin also performs better against Dooku in their lightsaber battle than Obi-Wan did. Also, the dialogue implies that Anakin may be stronger: pulling Obi-Wan out of the nest of gundarks and other things.

Hmm, no spoilers but RotS seems to indicate that Obi is still on top in the power/wisdom side of the house even above the 'chosen one'.

Being the 'will of the force' seems to be more the Force putting Anikin in the right places at the right time *TPM, AotC's, ect* rather than Anikin being uber Jedi. IMO, his 'raw Force potential' seems more like the side effect of destiny using his sorry ass than anything else.

Hmm, no spoilers but RotS seems to indicate that Obi is still on top in the power/wisdom side of the house even above the 'chosen one'.

Not really, not from what I've read (novel + script). Obi-Wan is undoubtedly more wise (it's not hard to be wiser than Anakin), but in terms of power it's quite clear he could never be as strong as Anakin.

RotS is where we'll see Anakin as he was at his peak in terms of abilities and feats.

Vympel wrote:

Hmm, no spoilers but RotS seems to indicate that Obi is still on top in the power/wisdom side of the house even above the 'chosen one'.

Not really, not from what I've read (novel + script). Obi-Wan is undoubtedly more wise (it's not hard to be wiser than Anakin), but in terms of power it's quite clear he could never be as strong as Anakin.

RotS is where we'll see Anakin as he was at his peak in terms of abilities and feats.

I'm speaking specifically of when he, more or less, turned himself over to the Force to act. It was very impressive and Anakin has no comparable acts or scenes.

Knife wrote: I'm speaking specifically of when he, more or less, turned himself over to the Force to act. It was very impressive and Anakin has no comparable acts or scenes.

It's pretty obvious from character commentary of both Palpatine and Yoda that Anakin could've easily done the same thing- General Grievous would've been no match for him either. Remember, Yoda quite plainly tells Obi-Wan that he was not strong enough to face Palpatine- and Palpatine says [and George Lucas has said] that Anakin has more raw power than he does. What Anakin lacked is experience. What Anakin did do, though, is slaughter an entire temple full of Jedi. He did have Clonetroopers backing him up, but without Anakin there, the Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans would've made short work of them.

As for a comparable scene, see where he lands the Invisible Hand. That shit was pretty much impossible. And it was Anakin that beat Dooku while Obi-Wan sat uselessly unconcious in a corner.

Eframepilot wrote:Anakin also performs better against Dooku in their lightsaber battle than Obi-Wan did.

This is where I have to disagree. Obi-wan didn't get his hand cut off.

Mario1470 wrote:
This is where I have to disagree. Obi-wan didn't get his hand cut off.

That's after the fight had already been decided. Obi-Wan isn't better simply because Dooku pWn3d him with two quick cuts. Fighting Anakin surprised and tired Dooku, beating Obi-Wan was simply good fun by comparison. The same holds true in RotS, Dooku takes him out of the fight quick smart, again. Obi-Wan sucks ass against Dooku.

Vympel wrote:[snippy small text]

Like I said, it appears Anakin's big force power specialty is being in the right place at the right time to be a tool of destiny. The 'he has more raw power than' term get's thrown around, yet there is preceious little attempt or uses of the power other than Anakin being where he needs to be for destiny to do it's thing.

OH, and are you talking about the duel with Dooku in AotC's or RotS that tired out and surprised Dooku? If Rots;

He was surprised that both Anakin and Obi switched from Form Four which he was owning them, to their own specific specialties. In fact it came as a bit of an epiphany to Dooku when he realized that Obi was easily blocking all of his strike while Dooku was musing to himself how easy this was.

Knife wrote: Like I said, it appears Anakin's big force power specialty is being in the right place at the right time to be a tool of destiny. The 'he has more raw power than' term get's thrown around, yet there is preceious little attempt or uses of the power other than Anakin being where he needs to be for destiny to do it's thing.

The small text is hardly right place/right time tool of destiny. It's skill and power, and it's referred to more than once. Having a destiny isn't a "force power" at all anyway. He didn't just sit in that cruiser pilot seat and say "ok destiny, do your thing" nor was that the case with defeating Dooku or successfully wiping out a temple full of Jedi Padawans, Knights and Masters.

OH, and are you talking about the duel with Dooku in AotC's or RotS [edited your above post to remove minor spoiler from novel]? If Rots;

RotS.

He was surprised that both Anakin and Obi switched from Form Four which he was owning them, to their own specific specialties. In fact it came as a bit of an epiphany to Dooku when he realized that Obi was easily blocking all of his strike while Dooku was musing to himself how easy this was.[/quote]

Doesn't matter- his surprise quickyl wore off- even after they changed Dooku easily eliminated Obi-Wan from the fight and Anakin bested him alone. A wise decision by Lucas, Anakin must have some reason for arrogance that he can actually say "see!" with- without people nitpicking it by saying that Obi-Wan helped, when he was unconcious.

Yep, looks like I'm definately going to have to stop coming into Pure SW if I want to see ROTS fresh.

Stravo wrote:Yep, looks like I'm definately going to have to stop coming into Pure SW if I want to see ROTS fresh.

Bah, you can't read that text, surely?