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This is something that has bugged me for a long time. In TPM we are introduced to Anakin as a child. The many many awful horrid glaring weaknesses aside from that 'film' aside, wasn't GL's choice at depicting Anakin as a child and as a non force user just silly or bad storytelling?

GL explained it as wanting us to see Anakin as a child, innocent and sweet and then the shock of his becoming Darth Vader. There is a major problem with this approach:

Not enough time is given for us to get to know adult Anakin. We see him from child in Episode I to arrogant padawan in AOTC. There is no in between. You go from "Aww...what a sweet innocent child." to "When the fuck is this arrogant ass going to fall already?"

We don't get enough character development from Anakin to really care about him. When he falls in ROTS I will frankly not give a shit. All I really want to see at this point is the Obi Wan/Anakin duel and Darth Vader. I haven't been emotinally invested in Anakin to truly care what happens to him. He could die in ROTS and be replaced by a clone and it would draw a shrug of the shoulders as far as I'm concerned.

Also there are some glaring faults at his depiction as it stands. Obi Wan tells us the following about Anakin: "He was the best starpilot in the galaxy." Funny that, when Obi Wan met him Anakin was just a stellar podracer. That's it. His only starpiloting was a haphazard flight in a starfighter that Obi Wan did not see. He does not starpilot anything in AOTC. That's right ladies and gentlemen, Anakin doesn't even fucking fly the Queen's yacht to Geonosis, she does. Anakin does not fly a godamned thing in AOTC save a stolen speeder (nice Jedi ideals there)

Obi Wan also states "He was a cunning warrior." Hmmm....Anakin was childish, arrogant and didn't follow his orders leading to such debacles as the escape of Dooku and his own maiming. A warrior? Sure. Cunning? Obi Wan was blowing alot of smoke with that statement.

Finally "And he was a good friend." If we had some character development then maybe we could have seen this but what I saw in AOTC, since its the only film depicting the Anakin Obi Wan relationship, Anakin disobeys his master, challenges him in front of others, refuses to go rescue him on Geonosis (He'll disobey orders all throughout the film until it counts to save his master and then he's suddenly goody two lightsabers, fuck you Anakin.) He bad mouths him behind his back and mocks his abilities to Padme. Anakin slaughters a village and its somehow Obi Wan's fault?! Obi, you could have done better for a friend.

Perhaps GL wanted Anakin to be unlikeable. I don't think that makes much sense if we really want to play up the tragedy of his fall.

Luke on the other hand I cared about. I saw him grow from young innocent wideeyed farm boy to quietly tormented young Jedi and when Luke says "You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me." you feel that tingle up your spine. This is a young man that has completed his journey and achieved what he wanted to achieve. We didn't want him to fall, we hoped he wouldn't fall. We cared about Luke.

But that's because we followed Luke's linear journey from young man to adult, not this sidetrack into a childhood that really did nothing for the story and hurt Anakin's charcater devlopement tremendously.

In essence I feel that TPM was a waste of a movie in terms of character development. All we see is Anakin in AOTC and now we will see evil Anakin in ROTS. He wasn't allowed to be someone we knew or cared about.

What are your thoughts on this matter? Have we seen enough character development from Anakin?

Precisely my objection to the way things were done. While the EU has keyed into some of those themes, such as depicting his qualities as a soldier and a pilot, the trilogy should not be relying on the EU to fill in the crucial blanks. My take on AOTC was the same 'Who gives a shit about this pompous brat' feeling you had.

I always thought that the fight that Anakin started in TPM novel version was a hint that his anger always lay close to the surface, it might have been cool to see that in the film as a method of hinting at what was to come. I'm definately with you on a lack of development of Anakin's character, there isn't time to do it in RotS without crowbarring it in, I suppose you could reconcile Obi-Wan's statements about Anakin as being largely a product of guilt about wondering whether it was his fault for not raising him well enough.

Obi-Wan tells Luke that he's an amazing wonderful warrior and jedi knight, and that he was destroyed by darth vader, perhaps this is merely just Obi-Wan convincing himself that Anakin could have been all these things but Palpatine got him and he instantly became evil without the possibility of recovery - hence the reason why he's so adamant that there's no trace of goodness left in Anakin. There can't be, because he's gone to the dark side, and nothing Obi-Wan said or did was ever going to stop him doing that, it was destiny, yadda yadda yadda, so it's absolutely not Obi-Wan's fault, no sirree, nope, la la la.

Or something like that.

I have to say that they did a LOT better with Anakin in the Clone Wars cartoon after his promotion to Jedi Knight in chapter 21. He goes on missions with Obi-wan, they're buddies, Anakin thinks up strategies that win the battle, etc. Sounds just like what you describe.

Praxis wrote:I have to say that they did a LOT better with Anakin in the Clone Wars cartoon after his promotion to Jedi Knight in chapter 21. He goes on missions with Obi-wan, they're buddies, Anakin thinks up strategies that win the battle, etc. Sounds just like what you describe.

That's all well and good but the films should be as self contained as possible. Casual fans might not be watching Clone Wars, reading EU novels so why the hell are they the source for the obi Wan Anakin relationship and not the films? That's absurd to count on the EU to flesh out what should explicitly shown in the films.

Thats like the EU fleshing out the Han and Leia romance so we see none of it in ESB save for the scene when Han and Leia part and declare their love. The audience would be undertstandably confused.

Stravo wrote:This is something that has bugged me for a long time. In TPM we are introduced to Anakin as a child. The many many awful horrid glaring weaknesses aside from that 'film' aside, wasn't GL's choice at depicting Anakin as a child and as a non force user just silly or bad storytelling?

GL explained it as wanting us to see Anakin as a child, innocent and sweet and then the shock of his becoming Darth Vader. There is a major problem with this approach:

Not enough time is given for us to get to know adult Anakin. We see him from child in Episode I to arrogant padawan in AOTC. There is no in between. You go from "Aww...what a sweet innocent child." to "When the fuck is this arrogant ass going to fall already?"

Agreed, but you're leaving out RotS.

We don't get enough character development from Anakin to really care about him. When he falls in ROTS I will frankly not give a shit.

Are you sure about that? It's a long film by Star Wars standards (140 minutes) and Anakin doesn't turn to the Dark Side anywhere near immediately.

All I really want to see at this point is the Obi Wan/Anakin duel and Darth Vader. I haven't been emotinally invested in Anakin to truly care what happens to him. He could die in ROTS and be replaced by a clone and it would draw a shrug of the shoulders as far as I'm concerned.

I would go nuts at such absurdity

Also there are some glaring faults at his depiction as it stands. Obi Wan tells us the following about Anakin: "He was the best starpilot in the galaxy." Funny that, when Obi Wan met him Anakin was just a stellar podracer. That's it. His only starpiloting was a haphazard flight in a starfighter that Obi Wan did not see. He does not starpilot anything in AOTC. That's right ladies and gentlemen, Anakin doesn't even fucking fly the Queen's yacht to Geonosis, she does. Anakin does not fly a godamned thing in AOTC save a stolen speeder (nice Jedi ideals there)

Um, so? When Obi-Wan first new him, he clearly was a great pilot- he was the only human to ever do Pod Racing, and not only live, but win. As a child. Obi-Wan was right about that.

As for the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy- RotS. Nuff said. Two incidents in RotS, actually.

Obi Wan also states "He was a cunning warrior." Hmmm....Anakin was childish, arrogant and didn't follow his orders leading to such debacles as the escape of Dooku and his own maiming. A warrior? Sure. Cunning? Obi Wan was blowing alot of smoke with that statement.

RotS

Finally "And he was a good friend." If we had some character development then maybe we could have seen this but what I saw in AOTC, since its the only film depicting the Anakin Obi Wan relationship, Anakin disobeys his master, challenges him in front of others, refuses to go rescue him on Geonosis (He'll disobey orders all throughout the film until it counts to save his master and then he's suddenly goody two lightsabers, fuck you Anakin.) He bad mouths him behind his back and mocks his abilities to Padme. Anakin slaughters a village and its somehow Obi Wan's fault?! Obi, you could have done better for a friend.

I agree with that criticism, but their relationship had matured by the time of RotS. Anakin is a great friend to Obi-Wan- childish temper tantrums before he's matured aside.

But that's because we followed Luke's linear journey from young man to adult, not this sidetrack into a childhood that really did nothing for the story and hurt Anakin's charcater devlopement tremendously.

In essence I feel that TPM was a waste of a movie in terms of character development. All we see is Anakin in AOTC and now we will see evil Anakin in ROTS. He wasn't allowed to be someone we knew or cared about.

RotS is not "evil Anakin". Part of it is, not the whole thing.

What are your thoughts on this matter? Have we seen enough character development from Anakin?

No. TPM was a wasted opportunity, I agree. But you're making assumptions about RotS.

Vympel, I would LOVE ROTS to be a true journey down a dark path but when you takle a character I already don't like because of his depiction in AOTC its hard to get me to give a shit about his eventual fate and fall in the span of 2 hours. I don't see GL pulling a character rejuvenation and deconstruction in 2 hours with space battles and lightsaber duels that need to be depicted as well. I just don't have that much faith in his writing ability after the last two films.

All I have to go on is what I've seen in the trailer and teaser and all I've seen is surly angry Anakin and then dark side Anakin. I certainly haven't seen a hint of tragic Anakin or even remotely likable Anakin in those teasers or trailer.

I think ROTS will be a good movie I just don't think Anakin is a good character.

Having read the ROTS novelization I'm am concerned and expecting that all the detail that was in the book that coverings things like the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, Anakin as a great pilot and warrior will be lost.

I'm expecting a very visual movie and while some of that stuff can be shown in the visuals I think that Lucas probably reached too far in trying to get the kind of tragedy out of Anakin's story in just three movies.

Not having seen any of the Clone Wars episodes or read more than a few EU stories I have a hard time buying Anakin as Darth Vader in ANH. I guess it is 20 years or so after ROTS so it might take awhile for Vader to become the short tempered bastard that he is in the original trilogy...maybe he focuses on his hatred of Obi-Wan and his cripling, but after what happens to him in ROTS I really have to wonder what his motivation is to even keep on living let alone being the right hand bastard to the Emperor.

Personally, I think Anakin could have benefited from at least a couple of (non-Jedi) ass kickings but he'd likely use that as another reason to go all bratty about how he's supposed to be the chosen one...bla...bla...bla

Sure Anakin is a hero but he's got a fucked up personality that would make him the perfect fit with the spoiled professional athletes or Hollywood prima donnas.

Stravo, I agree 110%. I've been saying as much myself for years, but you said it better.

Don't go by the novelisation in terms of characterisation for the final film. Stover just expands the living fucking hell out of absolutely everything.

I thought the script covered Anakin's character very well.

I find it that it is better to rely on the novelization of any story. This is how you tap into the spirit of the story and storyteller, all the detail are there. Including the inner feelings of character, which brings very well round characters.

Except that you can't use the novel to deduce what's going to be done in the movie.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Except that you can't use the novel to deduce what's going to be done in the movie.

Yhea, that's true, i'm always very dissapointed once i go and see the movie. I felt very let down at the beginning of TPM. But, what are you going to do? they have to cut for time, i guess.

But i what i do like is seeing the movie after reading the novel, because i feel an insight to the character that whould be lost without the reading.

No, you're approaching the situation backwards, as if the movie is based on the novelisation and the the actual other way around. They didn't "cut things out for time:" the author of the novelisation expanded on the script.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, you're approaching the situation backwards, as if the movie is based on the novelisation and the the actual other way around. They didn't "cut things out for time:" the author of the novelisation expanded on the script.

Without even seeing the movie I'm betting that the ROTS novelization did this a lot more than the AOTC novelization did.

I agree. Anakin should have been a young man even in the beginning. His and Luke's development arcs should have traced one another well.

I haven't read the AotC novelisation, but I'll assume you're right. I've read a significant portion (about half) of the RotS novelisation and the entire script, and the novel is almost absurd in how it rattles on about crap or how much characters talk the ears off of each other.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I haven't read the AotC novelisation, but I'll assume you're right. I've read a significant portion (about half) of the RotS novelisation and the entire script, and the novel is almost absurd in how it rattles on about crap or how much characters talk the ears off of each other.

Ignore Spanky. The novelization is great. Stover did exactly what he said he would; try and turn a novelization of a good movie into a good novel, while also linking up with Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Lord to form a de facto EU trilogy.

Frankly I would have prefered if Foster had written it. It just didn't capture my imagination the way the ANH novelisation did.

Yeah, I always thought Anakin should have been an adult to begin with. Personally, I would have preferred the PT starting with the clone wars going on and Anakin just being a pilot that Obi-Wan meets, and takes under his wing because of the strength of the Force around him, starting with Anakin being Obi-Wan's personal pilot, when Obi-Wan is only Major or Colonel Kenobi.

That, and no Artoo, no Threepio, No Chewbacca, and not having every important Jedi be the padawan of another important Jedi. Star Wars just seems small when everybody is connected like that.

Poor character development is the bane of the prequel trilogy. Lots of bad choices made. With the original trilogy we saw a lot of archetypical characters make classic mythic journeys. We could immediately sympathize and care where they were going. With the prequels we are seeing a lot of cardboard being crammed into flashy scenes without those connections being developed.