Warning: long-ass quote... any and all misspellings are the faults of the respective speakers.
So. Opinions? Comments? Am I an idiot? Is Fain a dunce? Or are we both approaching it from the wrong angle? Thoughts appreciated... feel free to quote sections and comment in particular.Thirdfain and Elheru Aran wrote: Comissar540 (10:39:22 AM): OT purist, that's me.
Comissar540 (10:39:32 AM): And I dare anyone to tell me the new ones aren't soul-less crap.
Comissar540 (10:39:39 AM): Cause they are.
elheru07 (10:39:44 AM): they might be crap but daaaaaaaaang do they ever look cool...
Comissar540 (10:39:45 AM): *curmudgeon*
LindarFenume (10:39:51 AM): lol
elheru07 (10:40:13 AM): seriously. try and tell me maul's not just one of the most fuckin' badass Sith you've ever seen...
Laurencegale (10:40:46 AM): He is not one of the most bas ass sith you have ever sen *waves hand in stupid way in front of el's eyes*
Comissar540 (10:41:22 AM): Yeah, he fought like a pussy, the fight was unbelievable, and 1 cool fight does not a movie make.
elheru07 (10:41:22 AM): *conjures DL-44 and blows a hole through LG's middle* there, now, as the servitors take away that rubbish... *flings blaster
away casually*
elheru07 (10:41:31 AM): oh, like a pussy?
elheru07 (10:41:34 AM): sure
Laurencegale (10:41:35 AM): Well, you know summer's on the way wehn the RHCP's are on the air again
Comissar540 (10:41:37 AM): The ewoks were bad enough. So then.... Gungans!
elheru07 (10:41:41 AM): i'd like to see you go up against him...
elheru07 (10:41:46 AM): and the Gungans weren't *that* bad
elheru07 (10:41:53 AM): seriously, the OT had its cringe moments
Comissar540 (10:42:01 AM): Look, his whole Force thing would let him win.
elheru07 (10:42:04 AM): "I'd rather kiss a Wookiee!"
Laurencegale (10:42:05 AM): uganuagts on Bespin come to mind
elheru07 (10:42:08 AM): indeed
Comissar540 (10:42:12 AM): But his actual fighting stance was retarded.
Comissar540 (10:42:23 AM): I'd kill him after his first attack missed.
Comissar540 (10:42:39 AM): He actually showed his back to his opponents for a second!
elheru07 (10:42:41 AM): with the double lightsaber? i'll give you that... but seriously, he was whoopin' ass till Obi-wan got lucky
elheru07 (10:42:55 AM): not his fault Qui and Obi were dunces
Comissar540 (10:43:03 AM): Because of choreography, not baddassery.
elheru07 (10:43:13 AM): that's non-SoD
Comissar540 (10:43:15 AM): And yeah, the OT had some cringe-moments.
elheru07 (10:43:24 AM): yes....
Comissar540 (10:43:35 AM): But the NT IS a cringe moment.
Comissar540 (10:43:43 AM): With some survivable stuff tossed in.
Comissar540 (10:44:00 AM): The pacing is godawful, the fight scenes are wooden and lack the OT's emotional connection...
Comissar540 (10:44:06 AM): I have a LOT of hope for ROTS.
Laurencegale (10:44:14 AM): might be a lack of credible actors for that
elheru07 (10:44:24 AM): mmhmm... speaking of which, have you seen the TV spots?
Laurencegale (10:44:25 AM): indeed, ROTs might redeem the SW name..
Laurencegale (10:44:29 AM): no
elheru07 (10:44:34 AM): not you, Comissar
Comissar540 (10:45:03 AM): The OT had no credible actors. They all started out with SW, there were no big names.
Laurencegale (10:45:15 AM): Alec Guinnes
Laurencegale (10:45:19 AM):
elheru07 (10:45:19 AM): Peter Cushing
Comissar540 (10:45:25 AM): Died off in the 1st one.
elheru07 (10:45:27 AM): not as 'big' now, but back then he was a big one
elheru07 (10:45:28 AM): so?
Comissar540 (10:45:31 AM): Peter cushing? minor character.
elheru07 (10:45:36 AM): Guinness RETURNED
elheru07 (10:45:41 AM): albeit as more or less a cameo
elheru07 (10:45:46 AM): but he still came back
Laurencegale (10:45:47 AM): who ever played Admiral ozzel was big brut tv at the time
Comissar540 (10:45:48 AM): The vast majority of the characters, around whom the majority of the plot revolved, were newbs.
elheru07 (10:45:56 AM): Harrison Ford wasn't
elheru07 (10:45:58 AM): relatively
Laurencegale (10:45:59 AM): was big on Brit TV
elheru07 (10:46:05 AM): ever hear of American Graffitti?
Laurencegale (10:46:15 AM): his first project
Laurencegale (10:46:18 AM): i think
elheru07 (10:46:23 AM): aye
elheru07 (10:46:33 AM): let's see.... Julian Glover (Veers)
Comissar540 (10:46:41 AM): A minor character.
Comissar540 (10:46:44 AM): Unimportant.
elheru07 (10:46:46 AM): So?
Comissar540 (10:46:56 AM): It'd be like having, oh, Samuel Jackson playing Windu.
Comissar540 (10:47:00 AM): Who gives a shit?
Comissar540 (10:47:12 AM): The major characters, aroudn whom the plot revolved, were freshmen,
elheru07 (10:47:16 AM): Would you call Obi-wan a 'minor character', considering he's more or less Luke's spiritual guide throughout the movies?
Comissar540 (10:47:16 AM): by and large.
Comissar540 (10:47:25 AM): While the NT has all experienced actors with names for themselves.
elheru07 (10:47:39 AM): Ewan Mcgregor wasn't that experienced
elheru07 (10:47:45 AM): not around TPM anyway
Comissar540 (10:47:47 AM): Come on.
Comissar540 (10:47:58 AM): Ewan McGregor is hardly a nobody.
elheru07 (10:48:02 AM): NOW, yes
elheru07 (10:48:07 AM): but back when TPM came out?
Comissar540 (10:48:08 AM): And Hayden Christiansen?
elheru07 (10:48:12 AM): ditto
Comissar540 (10:48:19 AM): And wosshername, that hot chick I've seen in a million movies, Amidala?
elheru07 (10:48:19 AM): AOTC got him into the public eye
Laurencegale (10:48:25 AM): Natalie Portman had been in a few before
elheru07 (10:48:27 AM): that's Natalie Portman, and she was in movies before
Comissar540 (10:48:30 AM): And SAMUEL FUCKING JACKSON?
elheru07 (10:48:33 AM): The Professional, for one
Comissar540 (10:48:38 AM): Come on.
elheru07 (10:48:40 AM): yes? and? so? therefore?
Laurencegale (10:48:46 AM): Leon as well
elheru07 (10:48:53 AM): are you saying Lucas should've just pulled a
bunch of rookies again?
Comissar540 (10:48:58 AM): No.
elheru07 (10:49:14 AM): dude, back then, *nobody* had heard of Star Wars
Comissar540 (10:49:14 AM): I'm sayiong that even with a stronger more experienced cast, his new dialogue isn't standing up.
Comissar540 (10:49:29 AM): It's wooden and has no emotion behind it.
Comissar540 (10:49:42 AM): Everyone remembers the Solo/Leia lines from the OT.
Comissar540 (10:49:59 AM): NO one's gonna remember the Hayden/Amidala lines from the NT.
elheru07 (10:50:13 AM): debatable...
elheru07 (10:50:16 AM): depends on ROTS
Comissar540 (10:50:25 AM): It all does come down to ROTS.
elheru07 (10:50:29 AM): indeed
Comissar540 (10:50:50 AM): I
Comissar540 (10:51:15 AM): I'm just gonna say- if SW started with TPM, we wouldn't be were we are today.
Laurencegale (10:51:25 AM): indeedy doody with a bucket of slugs on top
elheru07 (10:51:47 AM): well, one presumes that back in '75 Lucas would've kinda written it a LOT differently...
elheru07 (10:52:29 AM): and IIRC he originally started with what became pretty much IV-VI, only added I-III later on
elheru07 (10:52:59 AM): so TPM or what would become TPM, was not a factor back then
Comissar540 (10:53:14 AM): Of course it wasn'
Comissar540 (10:53:15 AM): t
Comissar540 (10:53:36 AM): My point is that TPM is NOT the alluring, interesting, emotional space opera that ANH was.
Laurencegale (10:54:13 AM): .. was it even meant to be?
Laurencegale (10:54:45 AM): Don't foet, it was aimed at a different generation
Laurencegale (10:54:48 AM): forget*
elheru07 (10:54:56 AM): indeed
elheru07 (10:55:04 AM): the 'Hey, cool, that looks awesome' generation
Comissar540 (10:55:32 AM): I'm 19!
Comissar540 (10:55:39 AM): I'm not some fossil.
elheru07 (10:55:48 AM): coulda fooled us... /dry
Laurencegale (10:55:51 AM): hehe
Comissar540 (10:55:52 AM): It's not like I saw the OT originally.
Laurencegale (10:55:56 AM): EXACTLY
Laurencegale (10:56:17 AM): The PT is aimed at the modern generation of 10 yr olds, who wont be impressed by 2 hours of folklore
Comissar540 (10:56:27 AM): Bullshit.
Comissar540 (10:56:43 AM): I loved the OT when I fist saw it.
Laurencegale (10:57:26 AM): but had you seen the matrix at the time? or any other huge blockbuster? no, you can't have done when you were ten
Laurencegale (10:57:41 AM): Blame on CGI or whatever
Comissar540 (10:57:44 AM): Notce that the first Matrix did great.
Comissar540 (10:57:47 AM): But the second?
Comissar540 (10:57:52 AM): And the 3rd?
Laurencegale (10:57:56 AM): indeed
elheru07 (10:58:11 AM): The second and third deviated from the formula of the first
Comissar540 (10:58:12 AM): And the Matrix was SO much better than TPM, besides.
elheru07 (10:58:16 AM): took the philosophy bullshit too far
Comissar540 (10:58:21 AM): The MAtrix aims at being a wild, stylish, confusing ride.
Comissar540 (10:58:25 AM): And hits.
Comissar540 (10:58:26 AM): TPM?
elheru07 (10:58:27 AM): actually, i would disagree with you on that, but that's a matter of opinion
Comissar540 (10:58:33 AM): it's 2 hours of exposition.
Comissar540 (10:58:39 AM): With a BEVY of awful moments.
Comissar540 (10:58:45 AM): "Let's do a barrel roll!"
elheru07 (10:58:49 AM): well, the whole idea is to set the stage
Comissar540 (10:59:03 AM): "Oops, I just busted a TF battleship! By accident!"
elheru07 (10:59:06 AM): get people back into the Star Wars mold, so to speak
Comissar540 (10:59:20 AM): "I'm 12, and I can kick ass in a little space fighter. Let's have a racing scene!"
elheru07 (10:59:26 AM): it wasn't the greatest, but it does two things-- set the stage for Palpatine, and establish Anakin as exceptional
Comissar540 (10:59:29 AM): "Meesa Jar Jar Binks!"
Comissar540 (10:59:43 AM): You can establish a kid as exceptional without being retarded.
elheru07 (10:59:57 AM): how? show him poring through a volume of higher calculus?
elheru07 (11:00:11 AM): suuuuuuuuure
Comissar540 (11:00:27 AM): OH, come the fuck on.
elheru07 (11:00:48 AM): now, i'm not saying i swallow it-- for example, i figure Artoo piloted the N-1 most of the time
elheru07 (11:01:03 AM): and i'll give you that the podrace scene was pretty dumb (if cool)
Comissar540 (11:01:04 AM): I'll tell you how not to do it: "I've got a shit-ton of midichlorians. Got any space fighters I can fly to shoot down a
battleship with? Did I mention, I'm 12?"
elheru07 (11:01:10 AM): ten, actually
Comissar540 (11:01:16 AM): Who gives a fuck/
Comissar540 (11:01:18 AM): ?
elheru07 (11:01:26 AM): and you will note that the
elheru07 (11:01:33 AM): 'space fighter' bit was *accidental*
Comissar540 (11:01:39 AM): YEah.
Comissar540 (11:01:44 AM): The word isn't accidental.
Comissar540 (11:01:50 AM): It's "Deus Ex Machina."
elheru07 (11:01:52 AM): Qui-gon tells him to get his ass into cover, then stay there
elheru07 (11:02:08 AM): and he starts poking buttons... like any curious kid would
elheru07 (11:02:15 AM): and i'm sure Linds-chan here could testify to that
elheru07 (11:02:57 AM): and it lifts up and starts flyin' about-- he sees the droids, sees the trigger, puts two and two together (really, how hard do you think this is?)
elheru07 (11:03:07 AM): SW tech is *deliberately* user-friendly
elheru07 (11:03:27 AM): hello? Luke? flying a X-wing after a few hours in a simulator?
Comissar540 (11:04:01 AM): Luke's been flying aricraft for years. He's 19.
elheru07 (11:04:14 AM): that's EU
elheru07 (11:04:30 AM): but if you want to pull that out, Anakin's had
several podraces
Laurencegale (11:04:32 AM): *cough* landspeeder cough*
elheru07 (11:04:42 AM): landspeeder =! aircraft
elheru07 (11:04:53 AM): it's their equivalent of a CAR
Laurencegale (11:04:54 AM): Similar Controls :p
elheru07 (11:05:03 AM): nope
Comissar540 (11:05:04 AM): It was conceivable that what is essentially a well trained civilian pilot daredevil could, with the force, handle a starfighter specifically designed to have controls similar to the T-16.
Comissar540 (11:05:08 AM): JAckasses!
Comissar540 (11:05:28 AM): Luke's landspeeder is not what of which I speak, but rather the T-16 skyhopper he flew.
elheru07 (11:05:46 AM): which, again, is EU aside from the model he was playing about with, unless it's mentioned in the novelization
Comissar540 (11:05:48 AM): Which while a civilian plane, is specifically designed to be a trainer for the Incom T-65 Xwing.
elheru07 (11:06:07 AM): Still EU
elheru07 (11:06:13 AM): unless in novelization
Comissar540 (11:06:38 AM): *shrug* So? He's 19, you can see the wing of the T-16 in his garage through one of the doors, it's far from inconceivable that the EU is correct. It's plausible.
Comissar540 (11:06:51 AM): Anakin is 10.
Comissar540 (11:06:53 AM): 10.
elheru07 (11:07:02 AM): as i said, if you want to play that card, Anakin's had several podraces (implied in the movie itself) and while stupid, it still states that he's had piloting experience (to a degree)
Comissar540 (11:07:24 AM): Yeah.
Comissar540 (11:07:27 AM): Starting when he was 8.
Comissar540 (11:07:45 AM): Skills don't come that easily, bub. And POdracers are NOTHING like starfighters!
elheru07 (11:08:13 AM): okay, let's go over the sequence of events, shall we?
elheru07 (11:08:22 AM): Qui-gon tells Anakin to take cover, he hops into a N-1
elheru07 (11:08:28 AM): Artoo pops into the fighter
Comissar540 (11:08:38 AM): "Training Aircraft for probably 4-5 years" as opposed to "atmospheric-only racing craft of completely different design and operation for maybe 1 year at most."
elheru07 (11:08:55 AM): Qui-gon and gang walk off and tell Anakin to stay, he starts playing about with buttons
elheru07 (11:09:17 AM): hits the wrong one, grabs the closest thing to a control stick that he can see (because he's used to controlling Podracers with a *stick*)
elheru07 (11:09:50 AM): presses the trigger in the process, sees it shoot, then the fighter swings about to exit the hangar, sights fall on the droidekas
elheru07 (11:10:13 AM): the flight up to the DCS was *automated*
elheru07 (11:10:38 AM): and, if you had kept attention to the fight from there, Anakin was basically careening about the place more or less out of control
elheru07 (11:11:08 AM): the skid into the hangar-- veeeeeeery lucky
elheru07 (11:11:50 AM): and the whole bit about waiting in there while everything came back online-- Artoo was taking care of it, Anakin? 'Shit, I'm in trouble now, hide'
elheru07 (11:12:10 AM): and when everything's back on, 'Okay, eat this, droid bitches!'
Comissar540 (11:12:24 AM): Long story short: Elheru likes it when stories are resolved by little-kid's fantasy Deus Ex Machina.
Comissar540 (11:12:35 AM): I hate you.
elheru07 (11:12:35 AM): *sigh* no, fucktard
elheru07 (11:12:48 AM): i am trying to explain an plausible, SoD sequence of events
elheru07 (11:13:05 AM): I agree that it's stupid, but you have to look at it within the context of the movie
elheru07 (11:13:26 AM): not just stand outside and holler 'OMG it SUX0R!!!1!'
elheru07 (11:13:39 AM): which is what you're doing
Comissar540 (11:13:41 AM): I saw it inside the context of the movie. And it was lame.
elheru07 (11:13:50 AM): lame, but explainable
Comissar540 (11:13:59 AM): And you can explain away poor writing with hard-to-believe chains of events.
Comissar540 (11:14:11 AM): :"Explainable" and "Good" are NOT the same thing!
elheru07 (11:14:21 AM): here's a hint, bub
elheru07 (11:14:25 AM): since when did i say it was good?
Comissar540 (11:14:35 AM): No one wwalks out a theatre going "That movie sucked, but if I follow a convoluted path, it's plausible."
Comissar540 (11:14:50 AM): You seem pretty keen to defend it, and the worst scene in the mopvie in particular
elheru07 (11:15:15 AM): *cough* 'worst'? *points out most anything with Jar Jar in it*
Comissar540 (11:15:35 AM): JAr Jar was godawful, but that scene where Qui Gion grabs his tongue was funny.
Comissar540 (11:15:44 AM): Making him less lame than Little Sithlord Ani.
Comissar540 (11:15:49 AM): Only just.
elheru07 (11:16:16 AM): who's a smart kid with emerging Force sensibilities
Comissar540 (11:16:17 AM): http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=66928
Comissar540 (11:16:28 AM): Stravo just posted a damn good point about the whole Ani thing.
Comissar540 (11:16:37 AM): And the most glaring weakness to the character.
elheru07 (11:17:28 AM): oh, certainly, I can agree with all of that
elheru07 (11:17:37 AM): and, again, it all comes down to RoTS
elheru07 (11:18:07 AM): *that* will establish whether Anakin in the PT, is going to be believably Vader of the OT
Comissar540 (11:18:16 AM): *shrug* even if ROTS is good, I'm never gonna watch TPM again.
elheru07 (11:18:24 AM): your pick...
Comissar540 (11:18:28 AM): And prolly not AOTC either.
Comissar540 (11:18:40 AM): Fuck, they named a movie "Attack of the
Clones."
Comissar540 (11:18:41 AM): come on.
Comissar540 (11:18:53 AM): They could have called it "The Clone Wars."
Comissar540 (11:18:57 AM): They could have!
elheru07 (11:19:12 AM): a.) it's the BEGINNING of the wars, and b.) it's not the worst title out there
elheru07 (11:19:29 AM): it's lousy, but it's what GL gave us, so fuckin' live with it
Comissar540 (11:20:03 AM): O-o What does that mean?
Comissar540 (11:20:25 AM): He makes some crap movies and I can't be unhappy ab out it, I should just shut up and take what he gives me?
elheru07 (11:20:33 AM): in other words? don't whine like a little bitch about trifles
Comissar540 (11:20:54 AM): Movies ARE trifles, and good film-making is based on trifles.
elheru07 (11:21:03 AM): be unhappy by all means, but be unhappy about the serious stuff... the title isn't *that* much of a concern
Comissar540 (11:21:06 AM): Camerawork, dialogue, character developement. Little trifles like that.
elheru07 (11:21:22 AM): uh, no. since when was character development a 'trifle'?
elheru07 (11:21:43 AM): it's important in any literary endeavour
elheru07 (11:21:50 AM): movies included
Comissar540 (11:22:01 AM): Yeah, I was being sarcastiv.
elheru07 (11:22:16 AM): obviously so
Comissar540 (11:22:34 AM): And I'm saying it's "Trifles" like that which we've seen left at the wayside in the last 2 SW movies.
elheru07 (11:24:03 AM): that, i can agree with... however, one should not simply drop trou and piss all over the PT simply because they think it sucks
elheru07 (11:24:26 AM): which is, to be honest, what i see you doing here
elheru07 (11:25:00 AM): it is still Lucas' vision of Star Wars, and while we may not like it, it's what we have to work with, EU aside
elheru07 (11:25:51 AM): you don't see NL and IP talking about the suckitage of AOTC while debating clonetrooper tactics, do you?
elheru07 (11:26:38 AM): no, they both debate the tactics as seen in the movie, in context, and search for plausible arguments, also in context
elheru07 (11:27:05 AM): They both admit it's pretty brain-dead, but they *work with it*
elheru07 (11:27:45 AM): and that's pretty much all I have to say on this matter...
Laurencegale (11:28:35 AM): *eyes blled* Dude.. too much time on ye hands...
Laurencegale (11:28:48 AM): bleed*
elheru07 (11:28:54 AM): hmm?
elheru07 (11:29:01 AM): is it that hard to understand?
elheru07 (11:29:06 AM): and yeah, i suppose i do
Laurencegale (11:30:05 AM): lol
Comissar540 (11:30:33 AM): It's not hard to understand at all.
elheru07 (11:34:12 AM): oh, and on another topic...
"
