Change in the Vader/Sidious-relationship after ROTS???

[FTeik]

At least since DarkEmpire we should know, that Palpatine intended to rule the empire forever, by living forever and using clones of himself as carriers for his soul/life-essence, call it, whatever you want.

But as far as i know, Palpatine didn't have the knowledge and the means to do that by the time of ROTS.

So if he wants his empire and the Sith-legacy to last, he has to build up Darth Vader as the future master of the Sith, hoping, that his apprentice will continue, where he had to stop because of (sudden) death.

But as soon as Palpatine discovers a way to achive physical immortality, he no longer has a need for an apprentice to succeed him. In fact, Vader becomes expandable.

So how does this effect their relationship? Is Vader even aware of that change in attitude of the emperor?

And what are you thoughts on the matter?

[Ender]

My thought is that the prophecy turns out to be that their deaths are linked, giving Palpy another lever against Anakin - That the Jedi want him to die. Though the novel hints at nothing like that, I noticed Stover cut away from a number of scenes to go in other peoples heads and avoid what I suspect will be bad gags and crap.

This also neatly ties up the "Palpy ignoring Sith doctrine in DE" idea - He's planning long term to survive in case Vader turns on him or dies.

[Spartan]

Ender wrote:

This also neatly ties up the "Palpy ignoring Sith doctrine in DE" idea - He's planning long term to survive in case Vader turns on him or dies.

Huh...shouldn't that be reversed. Anakin was insurance that his legacy would contine in the event he couldn't pull off imortality.

[NecronLord]

In the mind of Lucas (a strange world that is, what with Geonosian crewed Death Stars), Dark Empire's Wankatine never happened, given that Palpy was still looking for a successor at the time of his death. This is easily reconciled by assuming that Wankatine was actually just an insane clone.

[Vympel]

Lucas didn't actually say that the Death Star's were "crewed" by Geonosians, he said they built them, and who cares about them since they're just insects- he was clearly joking and I for one don't take that or other obviously silly comments like that seriously. He didn't even get the film reference right- it wasn't Jay & Silent Bob talking about that, it was the guys from Clerks.

[NecronLord]

He still seems to live in a bizzare world where glossing over major flaws in logic such as Spoiler: Battledroids stopping firing when Obi-wan and Anakin loose their lightsabers, and standing there 'confused by the action' is acceptable storytelling...

[Vympel]

He still seems to live in a bizzare world where glossing over major flaws in logic such as Spoiler: Battledroids stopping firing when Obi-wan and Anakin loose their lightsabers, and standing there 'confused by the action' is acceptable storytelling...

Which is that from again?

[FTeik]

In the mind of Lucas (a strange world that is, what with Geonosian crewed Death Stars), Dark Empire's Wankatine never happened, given that Palpy was still looking for a successor at the time of his death. This is easily reconciled by assuming that Wankatine was actually just an insane clone.

Where is it stated, that Palpatine was "still" looking for a successor at the time of his death?

And i don't want this to turn into a debate about the status of DE, while i don't like it, i accept, that it is part of SW, so something should happen between Vader and Palps between ROTS and ANH (if we assume, that Palpatine took over a clone for the first time then).

[NecronLord]

Which is that from again?

SW magazine #56 page 19. An interviewee recounts the event.

One such dilemma involved the audience's suspension of disbelief that a group of battle droids wouldn't shoot our unarmed heroes while they are proceeding to arm themselves. "The battle droids are working off an old Commodore," explained Lucas who suggested that the droids simply be distracted by the fast-paced activity. "When in doubt, just confuse them. New orders don't come in very quickly. They're like turkeys. If you wave your hand in front of them, they get confused."

[NecronLord]

Where is it stated, that Palpatine was "still" looking for a successor at the time of his death?

DVD commentry of RotJ. During the fight, Lucas explains that the Emperor wants Luke because Vader is not what he once was (Grr Medichlorain nonsense grr) and he wants a new, stronger, organic apprentice.

And i don't want this to turn into a debate about the status of DE, while i don't like it, i accept, that it is part of SW, so something should happen between Vader and Palps between ROTS and ANH (if we assume, that Palpatine took over a clone for the first time then).

He most certainly did not take on a new host before RotJ. I can't explain further without spoiling you.

[NecronLord]

Personally, I think it should be retconned so that at best Wankatine was an effort by Palpy to clone himself with an artifically inflated medichlorain (ARGH) count in order to provide a better successor than Vader. It is at least less harmful to the franchise than 'Palpatine comes back from the dead. Repeatedly. Because we can't make an original villain.'

[Vympel]

I'm not sure what Lucas is referring to. RotS?

[NecronLord]

Yes. That's from RotS. Hence why it's tinytexted.

[darthnidankendo]

I think that the relationship between Sidius and Vader was one of user and beign used, streight from the get go. The Emperor used Anikin/Vader as he pleased and Vader just had to go along with it. Notice Sidius' treatment of Vader once Luke comes back into the radar. In ESB "Your work here is done, go back to the command ship and await my orders" the Emperor says to Vader in a very nasty tone of voice, almost as if he was talking to somebody he had gotten tired of a long time ago.

Later when Vader returns to inform Sidius of the rebels, the emperor says to him very nasty like "I told you to wait on the command ship!"

these sences say to me that the emperor is done with Vader and is about to kick him to the curb as soon as Luke is in the picture.

[NecronLord]

I agree entirely.

[ImperialBishop]

Clearly, something has happened betwixt ROTS and ROTJ that makes Vader dip slightly in the Imperial hierarchy. He appears to be less Palpatine's heir apparent and more like a Luca Brasi character. Look at how the Admirals/Moffs respond to him in the Conference room; look how Tarkin has him leashed. There's certainly been a slide down the scale from a "magnificant jewel box of the Sith" to "Darth Vader sleeps with the fishes."

[NecronLord]

I think that's meant to be cockynes on their part. Certainly my impression has always been that Vader is the Emperor's insurance policy aboard the Death Star. If Tarkin decided that the big chair on Coruscant would look good around his ass, he'd be having extreme difficulty breathing in awfully fast.

[FTeik]

Where is it stated, that Palpatine was "still" looking for a successor at the time of his death?

DVD commentry of RotJ. During the fight, Lucas explains that the Emperor wants Luke because Vader is not what he once was (Grr Medichlorain nonsense grr) and he wants a new, stronger, organic apprentice.

That says only, that Palpatine wanted a new, stronger and more easy to influence (= better to keep under control) apprentice.

Nothing about a successor, should he die.

[NecronLord]

The entire point of getting an apprentice with the strenth to defeat him ("You can destroy the Emperor") has always been about getting a successor. If he just wanted an easily manipulated bitch, he would have offed Vader and elevated Mara Jade or Jerec or some other Shrub in his place.

[VT-16]

what with Geonosian crewed Death Stars

This is borderline Trekkie behaviour, and you know it. One little fun comment from Lucas turning into a "brainbug" (pun not intended).

Grr Medichlorain nonsense grr

Fan speculation, you don´t know this.

[His Divine Shadow]

In the mind of Lucas (a strange world that is, what with Geonosian crewed Death Stars), Dark Empire's Wankatine never happened, given that Palpy was still looking for a successor at the time of his death. This is easily reconciled by assuming that Wankatine was actually just an insane clone.

IIRC GL said Dark Empire was one of his favorite EU works.

[His Divine Shadow]

Personally, I think it should be retconned so that at best Wankatine was an effort by Palpy to clone himself with an artifically inflated medichlorain (ARGH) count in order to provide a better successor than Vader. It is at least less harmful to the franchise than 'Palpatine comes back from the dead. Repeatedly. Because we can't make an original villain.'

Personally I like palpy coming back from the dead.

[NecronLord]

IIRC GL said Dark Empire was one of his favorite EU works.

He also tends to ignore the EU entirely when telling 'his story' with minor concessions to it here and there, the origin of which are usually indeterminate. I feel that the Dark Empire plot makes little sense when tacked on to the canon. Then there's Palpatine's evil plan to suck everyone's souls out through the force (though this I'm told, comes from the Dark Empire sourcebook) - why?

'Wasn't it bad enough that he headed an evil empire responsible for countless atrocities that swept away freedom in an entire galaxy?' 'Apparently not. We'll have to make him worse. I know, how about a force vampire?'

Personally I like palpy coming back from the dead.

I feel it makes Anakin's sacrifice almost irrelevant, the entire destruction of the Death Star less important (No, the Emperor didn't die, he just moved to Byss and waited a bit) and that it undermines the entire narrative structure of the Original Trilogy, which now, instead of culminating in the destruction of the evil that has taken the galaxy, culminates in them inconviniencing Palpatine a bit. YMMV of course.

[His Divine Shadow]

IIRC GL said Dark Empire was one of his favorite EU works.

He also tends to ignore the EU entirely when telling 'his story' with minor concessions to it here and there, the origin of which are usually indeterminate.

I've not seen any problems here.

Personally I like palpy coming back from the dead.

I feel it makes Anakin's sacrifice almost irrelevant, the entire destruction of the Death Star less important (No, the Emperor didn't die, he just moved to Byss and waited a bit) and that it undermines the entire narrative structure of the Original Trilogy, which now, instead of culminating in the destruction of the evil that has taken the galaxy, culminates in them inconviniencing Palpatine a bit. YMMV of course.

*shrug* doesn't bother me

[NecronLord]

Like I've said. I'm not arguing that it's non-canon. I'm saying I think it's shit, and it should be branded with the infinities logo, and the writers fired (if applicable) without references. Force-Vampire Palpatine the CCCCXVI annoys me far more than Darksaber ever did.