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In AOTC there is clearly a 14 yo or younger child padawan fighting in the arena. He also dies near the end of the arena battle. If we have seen Jedi use children in combat situations can we assume that children padawan regularly enter combat situations and they don't have to be large scale combat situations like Geonosis, but can be small scale struggles like breaking up a pirate ring or capturing rogue bounty hunters, subduing dangerous aliens, etc. Since they travel with their masters we can assume that for example a 14 yo Obi Wan Kenobi may have had to parry blaster bolts while on an adventure with Qui Gon Jinn.

Is it moral for the Jedi Order to place children in mortal danger as part of their training? In Fact wouldn't a preteen or teen Jedi be the perfect target in a combat situation because of their vulnerability relative to their master? And if so why is the Republic allowing this and what sort of fatality rate are we looking at with the young padawans?

After all we only have a hint of what the Jedi Order is like onscreen since we tend to see it through the eyes of the truly gifted and elite of the Order (Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, etc) essentially the upper crust and best fighters but what about your average Jedi Knight and his 13 yo padawan? How many padawans don't come back from a mission out on the Rim? Are there masters constantly getting new padawans or monumenst to fallen young padawans in the temple? WHY are they accompanying their masters on these damngerous missions? (gaining experience as opposed to losing thier lives sounds like a rather hollow excuse) and why did Mace feel compelled to bring a 14 yo padawan into a combat situation like Geonosis? Is this indicative of the moral decay of the Jedi that no one thought anything of it?

A 14 year old Jedi Padawan is worth at least a couple dozen fighters with blasters. The Padawan could OWN the guys with blasters easily!

Not necessarily. It depends upon when you consider someone to be an adult. For example, in medieval Japan 12 or 13 year olds, IIRC, were considered full blown samurai and could be sent off to war. In the Jewish faith a boy is considered a man after his Bar Mitzvah(I'm not Jewish so I may have the wrong ceremony there).

Thus it's conceivable that in the Star Wars Universe, or at least in the Jedi Order, that 14 year old is considered an adult to some extent.

We're dealing with a culture which has 14-year-olds running planets (eg. Queen Amidala). She wasn't just the figurehead, she was the de facto ruler, elected by the people. I think that people just grow up a little faster in the SW universe.

Stravo wrote:Is it moral for the Jedi Order to place children in mortal danger as part of their training? In Fact wouldn't a preteen or teen Jedi be the perfect target in a combat situation because of their vulnerability relative to their master? And if so why is the Republic allowing this and what sort of fatality rate are we looking at with the young padawans?

Let's face it. It was pretty cruel in the first place to conscript the kids into deadly service ... for their entire lives. Yes, it was conscription. For all those that have been saying conscription is immoral that's something to think about.

While some cultures have that, many other cultures don't - at Alderaan, the age of responsibility is 17.

People are never really ready for anything. Are you sure an extra hour of studying won't help you at your exam? Are you sure two months of extra combat training would not improve your odds any? But at some point, you have to call someone ready and send them off.

As Jai Maruk points out in Dark Rendezvous, the idea is to pick Padawan that could hold their own in a fight, or they'd die fast. I suppose they try to pick the point at which a litttle kid learning the Force on average becomes a net asset rather than a liability to the Jedi Knight taking him. The Padawan experience lets him see life (since he's been caged inside the Temple for over a decade), finish his adolescence, and become an asset on his own.

And if you don't make that transition at a certain age, you wash out, because your progress is so slow that statistically you won't make Solo Asset. Kind of like those pilots that can't solo by the 20th hour of flight training - they wash out, because statistically the odds are against them making a good pilot.

Stravo wrote:In AOTC there is clearly a 14 yo or younger child padawan fighting in the arena. He also dies near the end of the arena battle. If we have seen Jedi use children in combat situations can we assume that children padawan regularly enter combat situations and they don't have to be large scale combat situations like Geonosis, but can be small scale struggles like breaking up a pirate ring or capturing rogue bounty hunters, subduing dangerous aliens, etc. Since they travel with their masters we can assume that for example a 14 yo Obi Wan Kenobi may have had to parry blaster bolts while on an adventure with Qui Gon Jinn.?

well pretty much we see that happening in the 2 part comic series like 3 years ago The Auorent Express, i believe its like 20 years before EpI i dont have the comic in the place im in now but Obi Wan is quite young, possibly 15ish

Obi Wan fought within weeks or months of being picked as a Padawan and fought various pirates and the militia force of a lowly planet, he only got worried when numbers of opponents got more than 4 I think and feared for others. Same thing with Anakin and that other apprentice Luminara I think it was, 4 jedi (2 padawans) took on multiple enemies with more concern for political implications than dying. Padawans get picked at 13 and follow their master into most situations just with less responsibility.

After stealing the kids from their parents which has happened, what's taking them into combat?

They get permission from parents before taking their children. They hardly rob them in the night.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:They get permission from parents before taking their children. They hardly rob them in the night.

I never said they always have, but at least one parent considered herself robbed, given that they asked while she was under the influence of drugs (or at least that's the inference, the actual claim was that she was 'weak and confused' IIRC) from the birth at the time, and sent an assassin droid to retrieve the child. (Yoda: Dark Rendevous) It seems unlikely that this is an isolated incident, and likely that other jedi have occasionally though by no means always provided insufficient time for parents to consider such a matter and/or taken advantage of the deminished responsibility of the parents.

To be honest, it baffles me why Count Dooku's parents would have let the Jedi Order take him. Mace's family were almost certainly sending the child off to a better life (Jedi Purges excluded), but Dooku's family had no such reason, being exceedingly rich and powerful, and I find it unconvincing that they would have said goodbye to their child simply out of patriotism. But, meh.

Qui Gon virtually stole Anakin from Shmee. Arranged to make sure that he got Anakin, bartering for both to get their freedom but when the chips were down the honorable Jedi used the Force to manipulate the chance cube in order to make sure he got the result he wanted.

Qui Gon also didn't give two shits about either of them until he suspected Anakin's Force potential and had it confirmed. Suddenly getting Anakin is as important as getting off Tatooine.

He took Anakin away in a rushed manner, not giving him or his mom any chance to think about the decision or to properly say Goodbye.


Obi Wan's reaction when Anakin admitted he couldn't sleep because he was dreaming about his mother was also very telling and showed that the Jedi were quite adept at brainwashing these young padawan almost as good as the church brainwashes its flock. "Dreams pass with time." Really Obi Wan, as a wise Jedi master that's the best you can do? Did you see the look of unease when talking about Anakin's mother as well. Obvioulsy mothers or paremts for that matter don't get much discussion among the Jedi.

Sorry but from what I've seen of Jedi tactics in getting children in TPM I'm surprised there weren't more people calling for their heads or at least reform.

It's part of this bizzare belief the old Jedi picked up somewhere that attachments would turn them to the Dark Side, which is frankly, just plain incorrect, as Luke's lot prove.

There were plenty of people who wanted the jedi dead, and plenty who co-operated with the purges. It's also inferred that the haphazard manner in which selection takes place is one of the reasons Dooku (This is, I remind you, in his good pre-Sith phase) became disillusioned with Jedi order ("Every jedi is a child someone decided they could live without.").

NecronLord wrote:To be honest, it baffles me why Count Dooku's parents would have let the Jedi Order take him. Mace's family were almost certainly sending the child off to a better life (Jedi Purges excluded), but Dooku's family had no such reason, being exceedingly rich and powerful, and I find it unconvincing that they would have said goodbye to their child simply out of patriotism. But, meh.

If they were exceedingly rich and powerful there's also probably zero chance the Jedi Order could successfully force the issue. They must have wanted to for some reason.

The AOTC dvds had a very interesting feature on them one being a Republic News Paper. One of the issues was about a young girl who was taken from her parents... lemme see if I can find it.

EDIT: Dmanit I can't find it, when they redid the DVD.STARWARS.COM sites they took that out... fuck.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:If they were exceedingly rich and powerful there's also probably zero chance the Jedi Order could successfully force the issue. They must have wanted to for some reason.

Yup. Short of some sort of mind trick, I just put it down to unconvinving or incomplete writing. I can't see why the Count and Countess of Serenno are going to do so unless it's some sort of bizzare noble tradition, like second sons going into the clergy.

NecronLord wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:If they were exceedingly rich and powerful there's also probably zero chance the Jedi Order could successfully force the issue. They must have wanted to for some reason.

Yup. Short of some sort of mind trick, I just put it down to unconvinving or incomplete writing. I can't see why the Count and Countess of Serenno are going to do so unless it's some sort of bizzare noble tradition, like second sons going into the clergy.

That's actually a good idea; the heir apparent to the County of Serenno may have died, and left Dooku, already with the Order, as the heir.

NecronLord wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:They get permission from parents before taking their children. They hardly rob them in the night.

I never said they always have, but at least one parent considered herself robbed, given that they asked while she was under the influence of drugs (or at least that's the inference, the actual claim was that she was 'weak and confused' IIRC) from the birth at the time, and sent an assassin droid to retrieve the child. (Yoda: Dark Rendevous) It seems unlikely that this is an isolated incident, and likely that other jedi have occasionally though by no means always provided insufficient time for parents to consider such a matter and/or taken advantage of the deminished responsibility of the parents.

Lets not forget Lorn Pavan of Star Wars: Shadow Hunter. Thye stole his son from him and then chucked him out of his Temple job.

Stravo wrote:Qui Gon virtually stole Anakin from Shmee. Arranged to make sure that he got Anakin, bartering for both to get their freedom but when the chips were down the honorable Jedi used the Force to manipulate the chance cube in order to make sure he got the result he wanted.

So he'd win Shmi and Anakin does what exactly, lives by himself? youd rather leave the young kid in slavery without anyone to take care of him?

Qui Gon also didn't give two shits about either of them until he suspected Anakin's Force potential and had it confirmed. Suddenly getting Anakin is as important as getting off Tatooine.

No arguments there

He took Anakin away in a rushed manner, not giving him or his mom any chance to think about the decision or to properly say Goodbye.

Yoda would give you the fear leads to anger bit, all I have to say about it is that there are millions of people on Naboo under Trade Federation occupation, and you have the Queen of the Naboo trapped on a Hutt system, time was of the essence.

Obi Wan's reaction when Anakin admitted he couldn't sleep because he was dreaming about his mother was also very telling and showed that the Jedi were quite adept at brainwashing these young padawan almost as good as the church brainwashes its flock. "Dreams pass with time." Really Obi Wan, as a wise Jedi master that's the best you can do? Did you see the look of unease when talking about Anakin's mother as well. Obvioulsy mothers or paremts for that matter don't get much discussion among the Jedi.

The Jedi will take the position that what they do is for the greater good of the galaxy at large.

Sorry but from what I've seen of Jedi tactics in getting children in TPM I'm surprised there weren't more people calling for their heads or at least reform.

If the EU is any indicator there are people resisting. But if the Jedi order numbers only in the thousands then the taking of children cannot possibly happen with enough frequency for the galaxy at large to think of it as a concern.

And as for the 14 year old Padawan issue, I assume you're referring to a human child, or a species that ages similarly, which is fair. The Jedi were strapped for skilled combatants and were probably desperate enough. In the Novel Dark Rendezvous we see that some of these younger Jedi make for fairly decent fighters and the JEdi felt they would be competent against the droid armies they were to face.

Darth Fanboy wrote:In the Novel Dark Rendezvous we see that some of these younger Jedi make for fairly decent fighters and the JEdi felt they would be competent against the droid armies they were to face.

One of them did. Scout, IIRC, would have problems dealing with a single B2 battle droid.

Hell in the "Hunt for Aura Sing" graphic novel. Two Jedi take a padawan that is so young and inexperienced that she has not even constructed her first lightsabre. She carrying a blaster, while they hunt down a Dark Jedi/ Bounty hunter who has already collected six Jedi heads, four of them Jedi Masters. Now in what world is it okay to take a child, to take a child to hunt a serial killer?!! It's bad enough that she had to witness the bloody mess that Aura left, that company of Republic security officers in.

On the upside Yoda does mention that with time Jedi Healers will be able to purge her mind of the horrors she witnessed. Good to know that they have a good counseling program.



On the Jedi baby stealing thing. I can't recall a single instance of someone voluntarily giving up their child. But we've seen several, taken under less than ethical circumstances. Both, Qui-lan and Alya, were not given up they were coceirced from there parents.

Probably it's another evidence that the Jedi is actually morally flawed?

What is the moral of sending underage kids to the battlefield, Jedi or no Jedi? What if the case is compared to real-world ones?