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then how can Jedi be getting better at using the Force and in some cases making quantum leaps in their abilties?

Look at Obi Wan as the prime example. He was a padwan that could defeat a fully trained Sith lord. (Say what you will, whether he outsmarted Maul or outdueled him Obi Wan defeated Maul fair and square.) In AOTC he takes on a Jedi Master turned Sith Lord who is more powerful than Maul (sith lightning, better duelist, can take on Yoda and fend him off) and though he does not win he was exhausted from battling in the arena and days of torture/and or confinement on Geonosis so he acquits himself rather well, standing among the most powerful force users in the arena when the combat is over.

In ROTS from the footage I have seen in the new music video and trailers Obi Wan is even more of a badass. Check out his springing leap attack from a skidding starfighter, he takes on Anakin from what I'm told is a 10 minute (?!) long duel where Anakin is trying his damndest to kill him and is more poweful than Obi Wan.

If this shroud supposedly dampens Jedi powers and as some here have asserted limits ALL Jedi, including the most powerful masters why are Obi Wan and Anakin exceeding their abilities and constantly surpassing their limitations. It is not until ROTS that I'm told that Anakin will noticelably be more powerful than Obi Wan so how does this happen? Did they find a loophole? Are people overstating the effectiveness of this shroud?

And as an aside, if this shroud is created by Palpatine why the hell is Luke so powerful that he learns Jedi powers and skills several times faster than his father did. Seriously, Luke did a padawanship in the span of a few months and was able to stand up to his fully trained father and a few months later outright defeat him. Shouldn't Luke be muted down and almost unable to do a damned thing? Palpatine neutuered the entire Jedi Order (if the shroud people are correct in their assertions) what the hell would one Jedi be able to learn and use? Luek should have been blind and flailing if the state of the Jedi order by ROTS is a measure of the shroud's effectiveness.

And despite the fact that I labeled this thread with spoiler warning I don't really want explicit ROTS plot details, I put it there for the rare few who are avoiding the trailers and music video as evidence (which is allowed since I've seen them and don't consider them spoilerific.)

Stravo wrote:In ROTS from the footage I have seen in the new music video and trailers Obi Wan is even more of a badass. Check out his springing leap attack from a skidding starfighter,

This is hardly an unprecedented talent or skill in the Force. It just looks cool.

Stravo wrote:he takes on Anakin from what I'm told is a 10 minute (?!) long duel where Anakin is trying his damndest to kill him and is more poweful than Obi Wan.

But Obi-Wan is better trained and more focused. Obi-Wan is also the master of swordsmanship according to Mace Windu, and he's perfected the art of Soresu, the defensive lightsaber form.

Stravo wrote:If this shroud supposedly dampens Jedi powers and as some here have asserted limits ALL Jedi, including the most powerful masters why are Obi Wan and Anakin exceeding their abilities and constantly surpassing their limitations.

Presumably they would progress even more without the shroud. The shroud does not simply trap all Jedi at their current level of progress. It obviously allows for growth or Anakin could not have matured and developed appropriately for Palpatine's plans.

Stravo wrote:It is not until ROTS that I'm told that Anakin will noticelably be more powerful than Obi Wan so how does this happen? Did they find a loophole? Are people overstating the effectiveness of this shroud?

Palpatine did need the Jedi to largely defeat the Seperatists until they were destroyed, especially at the opening battle of ROTS. Palpatine can presumably weaken or limit the shroud partially, and there's nothing to say the shroud effects all Jedi or all talents equally.

In the novelisation, Palpatine momentarily lowers the shroud around Obi-Wan completely to permit an escape.

Stravo wrote:And as an aside, if this shroud is created by Palpatine why the hell is Luke so powerful that he learns Jedi powers and skills several times faster than his father did.

And you decided that Palpatine indefinitely maintained a galaxy-wide dark side shroud designed to thwart and limit the Jedi Order of ten thousand before and during the Clone Wars AFTER they were all supposed to be dead why, again?

Stravo wrote:Seriously, Luke did a padawanship in the span of a few months and was able to stand up to his fully trained father and a few months later outright defeat him. Shouldn't Luke be muted down and almost unable to do a damned thing? Palpatine neutuered the entire Jedi Order (if the shroud people are correct in their assertions) what the hell would one Jedi be able to learn and use? Luek should have been blind and flailing if the state of the Jedi order by ROTS is a measure of the shroud's effectiveness.

Part of it is definitely destiny. Palpatine could not stop the Son of the Suns. Luke definitely had a year between Bespin and Endor, too.

I doubt the shroud was even effective as soon as the war ended and the Jedi were killed; there was no more need for it. Not to mention the Jeid could not even try to control or limit it because they had no idea of its source. I doubt it was effective even by when Palpatine is revealed as the Lord Sidious.

In the novelisation, Palpatine momentarily lowers the shroud around Obi-Wan completely to permit an escape.

Just a note Stravo, this is my conclusion from the quote in question- though I think it's highly likely given the circumstances in which they're in.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:he takes on Anakin from what I'm told is a 10 minute (?!) long duel where Anakin is trying his damndest to kill him and is more poweful than Obi Wan.

But Obi-Wan is better trained and more focused. Obi-Wan is also the master of swordsmanship according to Mace Windu, and he's perfected the art of Soresu, the defensive lightsaber form.

Glad to know Obi Wan is finally getting his due by the end of the PT. As a padawan he was impressing the hell out of me in TPM. We didn't see Anakin anywhere near that good in AOTC.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:And as an aside, if this shroud is created by Palpatine why the hell is Luke so powerful that he learns Jedi powers and skills several times faster than his father did.

And you decided that Palpatine indefinitely maintained a galaxy-wide dark side shroud designed to thwart and limit the Jedi Order of ten thousand before and during the Clone Wars AFTER they were all supposed to be dead why, again?

And Palpy couldn't just bring it up again as soon as he felt that tremor in the Force when Luke began training?

And mind you I know next to nothing about this shroud as I am spoiler free for ROTS so I really don't have a clue on its nature or how its created only that some folks have asserted that Palpy was single hadedly muting down 10,000 Jedi which I have serious issues about in terms of believability on my part.

Perhaps some of the Jedi are so powerful that they can defeat the shroud for certain abilities, Jedi like Kenobi, Anakin, Luke, Windu. And perhaps it only applies to combat abilities and not the more far reaching forms of pre-cognition?

Cpl Kendall wrote:Perhaps some of the Jedi are so powerful that they can defeat the shroud for certain abilities, Jedi like Kenobi, Anakin, Luke, Windu. And perhaps it only applies to combat abilities and not the more far reaching forms of pre-cognition?

I'd think it was more the opposite. The idea was to cloud the vision of the Jedi, so they would not be able to foretell the results of Palpatine's manipulations, nor notice the Sith Lord visiting the temple every week or two.

Remember, they are raised from infancy to treat the Force as an extension of their perceptions, a literal sixth sense.

The name itself is telling- 'Shroud of the Dark Side'. It implies cutting off their vision, and that was alluded to in AOTC.

Glad to know Obi Wan is finally getting his due by the end of the PT. As a padawan he was impressing the hell out of me in TPM. We didn't see Anakin anywhere near that good in AOTC.

Well Darth Maul is no Darth Tyranus- both were equally capable at Padawan level of taking on many time their number, and Anakin's feats against the Geonosians in the factory impressed me more than Obi-Wan vs Battle Droids (a crapload more going on in the factory, weapons fired at him that can't be blocked with a lightsabre, using force telekinesis) Obi-Wan was also pretty inferior in relation to Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul- Maul contemptuously put him away with body blows twice- due to his silly spinning attacks. He won at the end because he calmed the hell down and took Maul by surprise.

And Palpy couldn't just bring it up again as soon as he felt that tremor in the Force when Luke began training?

Why would he want to do that, when he wants to replace much-reduced Anakin with full-powered Luke?

Stravo wrote:And mind you I know next to nothing about this shroud as I am spoiler free for ROTS so I really don't have a clue on its nature or how its created only that some folks have asserted that Palpy was single hadedly muting down 10,000 Jedi which I have serious issues about in terms of believability on my part.

A lot of it is probably "the Will of the Force" and the machinations of the Sith, and especially the war in general. All these events are dark and disturbing, and cloud the Force.

Palpatine would have no reason to maintain a 'shroud' against a non existent order. Therefore, it would afford Luke the ability to 'see into another world' so to say.

After this, Obi Wan is able to come back to Luke as a spectre in recalling what he told Vader. In which he stated, 'If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.' Showing more then likely the conclusion that even Palpatine wouldn't be able to cause an interruption. (Speculation on my part for arguments sake.)

Then we have the revelation that Palpatine knows that Luke must be Anakin's son. Then Vader brings Palpatine to the decision to make him an ally. With this said, Luke begins his training, Yoda has proper mastery over the Force, and the early confrontation of Jedi/Sith begins.

Later, in the audience of the Emperor, Luke is to fight once again against Vader, who he knows to be his father. Then there would be no reason for Palpatine to limit either one's abilities, since this is a survival of the fittest. In this, his downfall, brings us to the point that the shroud is no longer present allowing a full blown Jedi vs. Sith duel. One in which we all know how it ends.

Vympel wrote:

And Palpy couldn't just bring it up again as soon as he felt that tremor in the Force when Luke began training?

Why would he want to do that, when he wants to replace much-reduced Anakin with full-powered Luke?

Here's my issue with that reasoning. I used to take that as a given but when I really thought about it I wondered. WHY does Palpy need a stronger apprentice? To give that apprentice a better shot at replacing him? With the Jedi Order gone Palpy did not have a need for an apprentice that could kick ass and take names against other force users. With his EMpire in control of much of the galaxy there were little external threats to his realm. With his skill in the Force reaching true mastery (If Dark Empire *ugh* is to be believed even approaching true immortality) Just why the hell would he want a more powerful apprenctice?

As I understand it Vader has reached as far as he can in terms of power by ROTJ, even in his reduced state he was a threat to Palpy. But he didn't have the balls, or perhaps realistically thought he didn't have a chance without Luke, to try and usurp Palpy.

So...why get rid of a known quantity that can't get any stronger over one that you know will get stronger and has shown a disturbing trend to become powerful very rapidly. Luke ascended from raw untrained person to full Jedi knight in THREE YEARS. It took Anakin over 10 years to achieve a similar level (Jedi Knight I mean)

Luke could very easily have reached Palpy levels in a decade or less if he continued that meteroic rise. In the throne room duel he defeated a Sith Lord with 20 years experience with raw power the very first time he dipped his feet into the dark side pool. Luke would have been a fucking monster if he turned completely.

What? Did Palpy have a death wish? Was he that fucking arrogant to think Luke couldn't take him in time?

So why the pressing need for a replacement? What was the point?

Megalomania? Perhaps Palpatine really had no other impulse other than to control the greatest Jedi that ever could be for the sake of doing so; pure power and ego. Palpatine also ruled from behind the scenes; his apprentice allowed him to exercise his will over any opponents, including his dark side using underlings, without suffering any political consequences. And in DE, Palpatine speculated about using the Skywalker bloodline as a host for his consciousness.

I bet specifically it falls on Palpatine's arrogance, that he can and will control the most powerful Force user. That means he has no doubt that he will be Skywalker's master, no matter what.

Stravo wrote:So...why get rid of a known quantity that can't get any stronger over one that you know will get stronger and has shown a disturbing trend to become powerful very rapidly. Luke ascended from raw untrained person to full Jedi knight in THREE YEARS. It took Anakin over 10 years to achieve a similar level (Jedi Knight I mean)

Well, to be fair, Luke took the crash course starting at 20. The regular Jedi program is stretched out over about 20 years. You would note that most adult Jedi post-Empire are made using crash-course methods. They definitely didn't take over a decade to make each.

Luke could very easily have reached Palpy levels in a decade or less if he continued that meteroic rise. In the throne room duel he defeated a Sith Lord with 20 years experience with raw power the very first time he dipped his feet into the dark side pool. Luke would have been a fucking monster if he turned completely.

Honestly, that wasn't the most realistic part of the show. I still don't exactly understand how it could have happened. What was the bitch was that a few days after ROTJ, Luke lost ... to fucking Darth Lumiya! Yes, she's carrying a fancy whip, but still ... doesn't that cause a bit of cognitive dissonance to anyone?

What? Did Palpy have a death wish? Was he that fucking arrogant to think Luke couldn't take him in time?

So why the pressing need for a replacement? What was the point?

I suppose he could have a strategy with his "Force-vampire' thing. That way, no matter how much Raw Luke gets, Palpy can beat him by stealing his Raw and adding his own to it.

Stravo wrote: Here's my issue with that reasoning. I used to take that as a given but when I really thought about it I wondered. WHY does Palpy need a stronger apprentice? To give that apprentice a better shot at replacing him?

Yes, that's exactly it, apart from the "replacing" thing. Palpatine says it himself in RotJ: "take your Father's place at my side!"

With the Jedi Order gone Palpy did not have a need for an apprentice that could kick ass and take names against other force users. With his EMpire in control of much of the galaxy there were little external threats to his realm. With his skill in the Force reaching true mastery (If Dark Empire *ugh* is to be believed even approaching true immortality) Just why the hell would he want a more powerful apprenctice?

Because that's not what Palpatine was thinking at the time, and Palpatine is not an insane clone. Rest assured, I am correct.

As I understand it Vader has reached as far as he can in terms of power by ROTJ, even in his reduced state he was a threat to Palpy. But he didn't have the balls, or perhaps realistically thought he didn't have a chance without Luke, to try and usurp Palpy.

He wasn't powerful enough to usurp Palpatine without Luke, that's true.

So...why get rid of a known quantity that can't get any stronger over one that you know will get stronger and has shown a disturbing trend to become powerful very rapidly. Luke ascended from raw untrained person to full Jedi knight in THREE YEARS. It took Anakin over 10 years to achieve a similar level (Jedi Knight I mean)

Luke wasn't a full Jedi Knight, that was Yoda blowing sunshine up his arse. Look at the way he fights compared to the PT Jedi- not in terms of style,but speed- look at how little he uses the force in battle- look at how he gets shot in the hand by a mere thug on Jabba' Sail Barge. Bested by a Scout Trooper (for a moment) on Endor.

Luke could very easily have reached Palpy levels in a decade or less if he continued that meteroic rise. In the throne room duel he defeated a Sith Lord with 20 years experience with raw power the very first time he dipped his feet into the dark side pool. Luke would have been a fucking monster if he turned completely.

Which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.

What? Did Palpy have a death wish? Was he that fucking arrogant to think Luke couldn't take him in time?

Simply put- this would be so much easier if I could refernece RotS facts.

So why the pressing need for a replacement? What was the point?

To continue the Sith. And also- have you listened to George Lucas' commentaries on RotJ DVD? He says the same thing- he wants a stronger apprentice.

Honestly, that wasn't the most realistic part of the show. I still don't exactly understand how it could have happened. What was the bitch was that a few days after ROTJ, Luke lost ... to fucking Darth Lumiya! Yes, she's carrying a fancy whip, but still ... doesn't that cause a bit of cognitive dissonance to anyone?

WTF? Who the fuck is that?

Vympel wrote:

Honestly, that wasn't the most realistic part of the show. I still don't exactly understand how it could have happened. What was the bitch was that a few days after ROTJ, Luke lost ... to fucking Darth Lumiya! Yes, she's carrying a fancy whip, but still ... doesn't that cause a bit of cognitive dissonance to anyone?

WTF? Who the fuck is that?

Marvel Comics I believe though your reaction is priceless for a *cough* purist like myself.

Stravo wrote:
Marvel Comics I believe though your reaction is priceless for a *cough* purist like myself.

When it comes to issues such as that, I'm a huge purist as well. I mean seriously, there's just no way that still fits in continuity- Marvel comics is in continuity, but only parts of it, since it's so old. Think Splinters of the Minds Eye- anyone who seriously thinks Luke fought Vader and won before TESB is smoking crack. Darth ... whatever, erm- the Sith ended with Palpatine's death. That's stupid.

Vympel wrote:

Honestly, that wasn't the most realistic part of the show. I still don't exactly understand how it could have happened. What was the bitch was that a few days after ROTJ, Luke lost ... to fucking Darth Lumiya! Yes, she's carrying a fancy whip, but still ... doesn't that cause a bit of cognitive dissonance to anyone?

WTF? Who the fuck is that?

Originally Shira Brie was Vader's agent sent to discredit Luke. Luke shoots her down under Force-guidance (Marvel #60-63), but she survives and Luke of course finds evidence to clear his name of murdering a fellow Rebel officer, which was what Shira pretended to be.

Anyway, Lord Vader trains her as another apprentice, also disguising her as an Emperor's hand to please Palpy. TIMETALES estimated the time of these happenings as within the events depicted in the TIE Fighter game.

At the time of Endor, she has obviously completed enough of crash-training to make a lightwhip of her own.

TIMETALES.DOC Summary of The Marvel Series: No Zeltrons (#95) wrote:Back on Kinooine, Luke faces off against the owner of the “lightwhip” – Lumiya. And she beats him to a bloody pulp

Luke won in the rematch, of course, having added a lightdagger to his repetoire (why he doesn't keep it is a mystery, since there are obviously some uses to a little knive like that). Still, how could he possibly lose to that hastily made Lumiya (after beating her Master Darth Vader) months
ago is rather unimaginable.

And Lumiya plain isn't that good:

TIMETALES.DOC Summary of the Marvel Series: All Together Now (#107) wrote:Luke captures the prince, as Leia battles Lumiya. The Dark Lady gains the upper hand, and is about to deliver the deathblow – when one of the Tofs guns her down. That Tof then removes his clothes to reveal – Bey!!! Up in orbit, the Rebels capture the ‘Merriweather’. With no alternatives left, the prince finally surrenders. Han and Knife are surprised to say the least, but it turns out Bey has been a deep-cover agent for the Alliance – he could not stand by and let the Tofs destroy both his home races. The prince is taken back to the Alliance to sign surrender papers. The Nagai / Tof Invasion is over, and the time has come for a New Republic to finally be born.

Leia. Who hadn't even gotten to her own lightsaber by HTTE. And we are supposed to think someone who could have beaten Luke once would have to struggle to defeat her.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:What was the bitch was that a few days after ROTJ, Luke lost ... to fucking Darth Lumiya! Yes, she's carrying a fancy whip, but still ... doesn't that cause a bit of cognitive dissonance to anyone?

She was better trained than he; he only beat Vader thanks to his hate. And she's just Lumiya. No Darth.

And it was more like a month or two later.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I suppose he could have a strategy with his "Force-vampire' thing. That way, no matter how much Raw Luke gets, Palpy can beat him by stealing his Raw and adding his own to it.

Well by DE he has an alterior motive: supplanting his own shitty clone line with the Skywalker bloodline.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:She was better trained than he; he only beat Vader thanks to his hate. And she's just Lumiya. No Darth.

Wasn't Luke doing pretty well, then Vader said the wrong thing about his sister, and then Luke beat him into a pulp?

And it was more like a month or two later.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I suppose he could have a strategy with his "Force-vampire' thing. That way, no matter how much Raw Luke gets, Palpy can beat him by stealing his Raw and adding his own to it.

Well by DE he has an alterior motive: supplanting his own shitty clone line with the Skywalker bloodline.[/quote]

That too.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:She was better trained than he; he only beat Vader thanks to his hate. And she's just Lumiya. No Darth.

Wasn't Luke doing pretty well, then Vader said the wrong thing about his sister, and then Luke beat him into a pulp?

And it was more like a month or two later.

The whole damn thing was a temptation by the dark side; trying to strike down Palpatine "unarmed", bashing about with his father (his teeth are bared half the time for Christ's sake). The end is only when he stops trying to restrain it.

Cal Wright wrote:After this, Obi Wan is able to come back to Luke as a spectre in recalling what he told Vader. In which he stated, 'If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.' Showing more then likely the conclusion that even Palpatine wouldn't be able to cause an interruption. (Speculation on my part for arguments sake.)

I'd have to agree with this reasoning. RotS spoiler (tiny) We know Obi-Wan learns to mantain his consciencesness in the Force after death from Qui-Gon. Prior to ANH there was no aware presence in the Force, after Obi-Wan went into it, I have to believe that his line wasn't just pure fluff, that he could actually do something to influence the Force, even in death.

It would explain why 'the shroud' didn't come down again.


Although we have to ask, why do we treat this 'shroud' as a light switch? On-Off? I mean isn't it just as concievable that it was slowly brought into place by all the Sith, Darth Bane and onwards, until finally Palpy came around? I mean aren't we giving Palpy just a little too much credit here?

And all of this speculations ignores the implication that the Force its self is somewhat aware and it is the one that has decided the Jedi of the OR should fall ...

Well that doesn't make any sense, Crown: Obi-Wan says the shroud has been clouding the Force for a decade-and-a-half before which Sidious was still Sith Master; besides it doesn't make any sense for it to be a millenial work in progress and Mace and Yoda just wake up someday and decide to awknowledge its obvious effects.