The Clone Wars - Not what you thought?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-02 02:40pm

We all must have had our own ideas what the Clone Wars were. Me for instance always imagined that it was the Old Republic vs. Clone warriors. It would have been bloody and nasty affair as the bad guys would have armies of cloned soldiers who didn't care about casaulties because they could just cook up another batch in no time.

Instead of the hordes of droid armies I always imagined clone armies, everyone looking alike, pale and grey and zombie like.

The Jedi would have fought against them along with OR forces and maybe precursor stormtroopers as the OR's attempt at creating a crack force of warriors that could fight alongside the Jedi.

In fact in AOTC the scene where the Jedi are rushing off leading stromtroopers with their lightsabers lit is a scene that I always envisioned in my head when thinking about the Clone wars and when I saw that scene in AOTC I just smiled and laughed because that was something I never thought I'd see.

However, I never imagined the Stormtroopers were clones. (Despite some early fluff material out there about that) and more importnatly that they were the Clones in question when discussing the Clone Wars.

So, was anyone else disappointed and/or surprised by that revelation that it was actually a Droid v. Clone setup and that the clones were the good guys and not the bad guys? Did anyone spin out equally cool scenarios in their heads about what the Clone Wars must have been like.

Just as a post script, I always imagined that the Clone Wars was where the Mandalorians shined, fighting Jedi across the stars before being whittled down to just Boba Fett, a gristled wily veteran of the Clone Wars. I was never happy with what GL did with my favorite faction of the Clone Wars. Marvel Comics did an excellent job filling in a lot of backstory on the Mandalorians that I find far superior than what GL has done with them and it is reflected in my treatment of them in The Twilight War fic.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 02:44pm

I agree with almost everything you're saying, except for one thing: I never thought the clones were the good guys, nor that it was the point. WHen you think about it, there ARE no good guys in the Clone Wars. This I think is intentional on Lucas' part.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-05-02 02:49pm

I always imaged the 'Clone Wars' had to do with like slave clones who eventually rebel and spark this huge war. I dont know why, but i just had this image in my head of rebel clones screaming "For Freedom!" and charging the Galactic Senate with hordes of stormies blasting at them with E-webs.

Either that or, an evil Clone Lords race pops up with armies if clone soldiers and though less advanced weapon wise they outnumber the whole galaxy so it took like twenty years to finally win a decisive battle and drive the Clone hordes back.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-02 02:52pm

I imagined new developments in clone technology sparking clone armies on many sides and constant war. From which the New Order rose!

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-05-02 02:58pm

I don't know what I imagined, but it sure as hell wasn't what Lucas delivered. Why the hell would you call a civil war where mega-corporations fielded hordes of war droids against the Republic's own clones, 'the clone wars?' It makes no fucking sense.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-02 02:59pm

Stofsk wrote:I agree with almost everything you're saying, except for one thing: I never thought the clones were the good guys, nor that it was the point. WHen you think about it, there ARE no good guys in the Clone Wars. This I think is intentional on Lucas' part.

That's all well and good for a grown up fantasy series but OT was beautifully simple and black and white. The cool part as a kid was that the bad guys wore white but you knew immedaitely that stormtroopers were bad, rebels were good. There was no gray area of ambiguity 'Oh are the clones REALLY good?"

My daughter adores the OT because it makes sense to her. She does not like PT save for....Jar Jar, christ save me, she loves Jar Jar in TPM and lightsaber duels in general. But she is immediately confused by AOTC. Doesn't 'get' what's going on. She constantly asks me "Daddy are they good guys? Daddy are they bad guys? Why is the nice grandpa actually bad? (Dooku) "

I NEVER asked questions like this in the OT and I think GL lost that touch that the OT had. I can appreicate that intrigue as an adult (and frankly not very well written political intrigue IMO) but as a kid they get bored real fast, never a problem with the OT.

So the no one is a good guy in the Clone Wars angle is bad for kids.

For a modern example of this simplicity in storytelling LOTR was immediately simple for my daughter. Orcs look bad and they are bad. Ringwraiths look bad and they are bad. The heroes look like heroes and there isn't much ambiguity for her to deal with.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 03:03pm

The ultimate irony though is I hear every motherfucker and his uncle tell me the PT was made for kids. What you said is a great way to shoot that shit down.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2005-05-02 03:15pm

I tend to agree with most of what's been said... *Shameless plug* as seen in rewrites of the scripts I've done, found on this very board*Shamless plug* I originally thought that the clones were the bad guys and that it would have to do with Manilorians. I don't mind TPM as much as some but I've never liked the idea of the whole thing being sparked by a trade dispute.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-05-02 03:20pm

They really should have started the clone wars in the first movie. Now the whole premise is wrong. Republics have standing armies. Evil corporations buy armies. I don't mind the clones being the "good" guys, it just opens the door for the TF to buy every scumbag in the galaxy into their ranks.
I wanted to see political backstabbing and people stacking up powder kegs until someone drops the match and the whole galaxy just blows to hell.

Having two major sides is just fine and dandy but my impression from older fluff was that the situation was like pre WWI. Everybody and their uncle was itching for a fight, to settle old scores, to show those idiots in the neighboring system who is the man, because it's tuesday. Pick a reason.

I mean real civil war on a galactic scale. Not floppy eared fuckheads throwing balls at droids.
From this chaos comes Palpy to bring order to the galaxy and people love him for it.

-Gunhead

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 03:22pm

I hate the retcon. If you watch ANH, Obi-wan intimates that Anakin and Owen Lars were brothers, but more than that, they knew each other enough for Anakin to 'share his ideals' with him, and for the latter to disagree. We see none of that in the prequels.

The worst part is Lucas wrote this shit. So he SHOULD know it.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-05-02 03:28pm

Stofsk wrote:The worst part is Lucas wrote this shit. So he SHOULD know it.

Could he have suffered brain damage of some sort between the trilogies?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-02 03:54pm

Quadlok wrote:
Stofsk wrote:The worst part is Lucas wrote this shit. So he SHOULD know it.
Could he have suffered brain damage of some sort between the trilogies?

"Could have"?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-05-02 03:55pm

I thought of Jedi Troops (on the side of the Old Republic) fighting "Mandalorian Supercommandos" which I pictured to be guys in Boba Fett style armor. The Mandalorians would use Clones to augment their armies, and cloning tech would play a key factor in the wars, such as cloning doppelgangers for various leaders and such to infiltrate the Republic. The Republic may even have experimented with it but it failed. The Mandalorians were wiped out by the Jedi and the Wars ended, and Cloning Tech (using Spaarti cylinders and such) was banned.

The instability of Cloning Tech may have lead to the Mandalorians's defeat in fact, as their troops went mad.

I didn't think the Wars really had anything to do with the Emperor's direct rise to power (except maybe as a leader taking over AFTER the war to rebuild or something after a costly conflict, like Hitler after WWI in Germany).

This I got from reading the Thrawn Trilogy back in the day and a few Lucas interviews. It sounded interesting enough, but it's not what we eventually got. The way it ended up being done (thus far) isn't so bad, I kind of like the "reversals" Lucas is trying to do with shifting the "good guys" and the "bad guys" around and messing with our heads.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-05-02 04:11pm

Yeah, I pictured Boba Fett himself as a survivor, or somebody who grabbed a suit of armor off a dead Mandalorian to try to recapture that lost glory (thus taking delight in trying to kill Jedi, like when he went after Luke). The Stormtroopers wouldn't come into the picture until after Palpatine took power, and I never pictured THEM as clones. Clone Tech was "lost" when the Empire took over (which I pictured as a surprise coupe, not a slow legal transition).

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 04:22pm

I never got why Boba Fett had a cult form around him. Wedge? Yeah, I can understand - he survived Yavin, Hoth, and landed the killing blow against the second DS "Copy that. I'm already on my way out, Gold Leader." - but Boba Fett? He traps Solo in an admittedly cunning fashion, but in ROTJ he goes down like a bitch.

That said, I DO like how his origin is revealed. Not the way it was revealed, but I did like how George Lucas took the OT, took some of the backstory from it and fashioned it around a character. What I DON'T like is how he 'forgot' to do this for the OTHER secondary characters from the OT. Bail. I know nothing about him, except he doesn't like the concept of an army. So why does he get involved in an insurrection two decades later? Mon Mothma. Never liked her to begin with, but I now consider the PTs to be a wasted opportunity to show and develop her character. Ackbar and the Mon Calamari, who were the 'soul' of the Rebellion? Sorry guys - you get Gungans instead. This would have been the perfect time to dispell that bullshit about Ackbar becoming a fleet strategist by watching over Tarkin's shoulder; instead we could have seen him as an Ensign, becoming a fighter for life. Wedge and the Corellians (which would also be Han's backstory too)? Again, whoopsy, can't be fucked giving you that info. Again, perfect opportunity wasted - ever wonder what Han was talking about with the line "not those local bulk cruisers, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now."? Yeah, me neither. What about Dodonna? He was active in the Clone Wars too. Tarkin? A principal character in ANH.

The Clone Wars wasn't the only wasted opportunity in the prequels. I know it sounds like sour grapes, and I don't really mean to sound so negative because there are times when I enjoyed watching the prequels. But at the same time, I can't help but feel 'what if...'

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-05-02 04:27pm

Well I always thought there was more than one of them: from the fact they were called the clone wars.

And also that both sides used clones.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-05-02 04:37pm

Stofsk wrote:I never got why Boba Fett had a cult form around him. Wedge? Yeah, I can understand - he survived Yavin, Hoth, and landed the killing blow against the second DS "Copy that. I'm already on my way out, Gold Leader." - but Boba Fett? He traps Solo in an admittedly cunning fashion, but in ROTJ he goes down like a bitch.

That said, I DO like how his origin is revealed. Not the way it was revealed, but I did like how George Lucas took the OT, took some of the backstory from it and fashioned it around a character. What I DON'T like is how he 'forgot' to do this for the OTHER secondary characters from the OT. Bail. I know nothing about him, except he doesn't like the concept of an army. So why does he get involved in an insurrection two decades later? Mon Mothma. Never liked her to begin with, but I now consider the PTs to be a wasted opportunity to show and develop her character. Ackbar and the Mon Calamari, who were the 'soul' of the Rebellion? Sorry guys - you get Gungans instead. This would have been the perfect time to dispell that bullshit about Ackbar becoming a fleet strategist by watching over Tarkin's shoulder; instead we could have seen him as an Ensign, becoming a fighter for life. Wedge and the Corellians (which would also be Han's backstory too)? Again, whoopsy, can't be fucked giving you that info. Again, perfect opportunity wasted - ever wonder what Han was talking about with the line "not those local bulk cruisers, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now."? Yeah, me neither. What about Dodonna? He was active in the Clone Wars too. Tarkin? A principal character in ANH.

The Clone Wars wasn't the only wasted opportunity in the prequels. I know it sounds like sour grapes, and I don't really mean to sound so negative because there are times when I enjoyed watching the prequels. But at the same time, I can't help but feel 'what if...'

Well...Lucas SAYS this is the last movie...

But i'd bet my last dime a host of TV shows and movies by other directors are already set up and sold off to explain all that stuff.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-05-02 05:17pm

Why the hell would you call a civil war where mega-corporations fielded hordes of war droids against the Republic's own clones, 'the clone wars?' It makes no fucking sense.

It´s the first major conflict where clones are used as armies, that´s why.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-02 05:49pm

Stofsk wrote:The ultimate irony though is I hear every motherfucker and his uncle tell me the PT was made for kids. What you said is a great way to shoot that shit down.

Except that he's basing it entirely on his own daughter's reactions. Both my kids and all of their friends like the prequels. And I don't know why anyone in his right mind would try to say that LOTR is more suitable for kids than the SW prequels; my kids are used to TV violence but they only watch bits and pieces of LOTR because the films are so damned long and boring.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-02 05:56pm

Stravo wrote:That's all well and good for a grown up fantasy series but OT was beautifully simple and black and white. The cool part as a kid was that the bad guys wore white but you knew immedaitely that stormtroopers were bad, rebels were good. There was no gray area of ambiguity 'Oh are the clones REALLY good?"

My daughter adores the OT because it makes sense to her. She does not like PT save for....Jar Jar, christ save me, she loves Jar Jar in TPM and lightsaber duels in general. But she is immediately confused by AOTC. Doesn't 'get' what's going on. She constantly asks me "Daddy are they good guys? Daddy are they bad guys? Why is the nice grandpa actually bad? (Dooku) "

I don't know why your daughter has trouble with it, or why she would think for even a moment that Dooku is the "nice grandpa". My boys had no trouble at all figuring out who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in AOTC.

I NEVER asked questions like this in the OT and I think GL lost that touch that the OT had. I can appreicate that intrigue as an adult (and frankly not very well written political intrigue IMO) but as a kid they get bored real fast, never a problem with the OT.

Honestly, I have real difficulty believing that you're not altering your observations to suit your preferred conclusion. I love the OT as much as anyone, but my kids find the entire middle of TESB to be boring. It's the most adult-oriented of the OT films. If your daughter enjoys all of Yoda's pseudo-philosophy, I don't see why she would have so much trouble figuring out things like who's good and who's bad in AOTC.

So the no one is a good guy in the Clone Wars angle is bad for kids.

I told my son that clonetroopers just follow orders and they don't care whether they're good or evil orders. He had no trouble at all understanding this. How old do you think a child has to be in order to comprehend this?

For a modern example of this simplicity in storytelling LOTR was immediately simple for my daughter. Orcs look bad and they are bad. Ringwraiths look bad and they are bad. The heroes look like heroes and there isn't much ambiguity for her to deal with.

That's because despite all of its atmosphere, LOTR has all the thematic maturity of The Cat In The Hat.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 06:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:Except that he's basing it entirely on his own daughter's reactions. Both my kids and all of their friends like the prequels.

I meant his bit about how the OT had clear good guys/bad guys, while the PT seems to be murkier - though it appears this is a subjective interpretation anyway. I don't know why, it just seems like a 'adult' way of constructing the opposing sides in the war.

So was it made for kids? Or did Lucas try to do something subtle with the way he wrote the Separtists and Republic forces into it? He could have done both, actually. Which may shoot down the 'it's just a dumb kids movie' crowd.

I suppose it should be worth noting that when I was a kid, I hated ESB. I thought it was too sad and long and cold. But now that I'm older, it's my favourite movie of them all. There is depth in the prequels, I mean we've analysed it to death and you've written pages about it - that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed as though you were a kid once again. I mean, when I said "the PT was meant for kids = rubbish" I didn't mean it as a bad thing. Some people dismiss it as a kids movie. Or some people want it to be an adult movie. Why the hell can't there be a middleground between the two? Why does it have to be made for kids OR adults, why not kids AND adults?

If it seems like I'm rambling it's probably because I need to get some sleep.

And I don't know why anyone in his right mind would try to say that LOTR is more suitable for kids than the SW prequels; my kids are used to TV violence but they only watch bits and pieces of LOTR because the films are so damned long and boring.

Oh hell yes. Even FOTR which is my favourite, even then I was wondering what the time was. It only got worse.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-02 06:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:That's all well and good for a grown up fantasy series but OT was beautifully simple and black and white. The cool part as a kid was that the bad guys wore white but you knew immedaitely that stormtroopers were bad, rebels were good. There was no gray area of ambiguity 'Oh are the clones REALLY good?"

My daughter adores the OT because it makes sense to her. She does not like PT save for....Jar Jar, christ save me, she loves Jar Jar in TPM and lightsaber duels in general. But she is immediately confused by AOTC. Doesn't 'get' what's going on. She constantly asks me "Daddy are they good guys? Daddy are they bad guys? Why is the nice grandpa actually bad? (Dooku) "
I don't know why your daughter has trouble with it, or why she would think for even a moment that Dooku is the "nice grandpa". My boys had no trouble at all figuring out who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in AOTC.

My daughter has a thing for old men. She thinks they're all nice. Hardly an average reaction but that's my only child gauge for the prequels.

Darth Wong wrote:[
I NEVER asked questions like this in the OT and I think GL lost that touch that the OT had. I can appreicate that intrigue as an adult (and frankly not very well written political intrigue IMO) but as a kid they get bored real fast, never a problem with the OT.
Honestly, I have real difficulty believing that you're not altering your observations to suit your preferred conclusion. I love the OT as much as anyone, but my kids find the entire middle of TESB to be boring. It's the most adult-oriented of the OT films. If your daughter enjoys all of Yoda's pseudo-philosophy, I don't see why she would have so much trouble figuring out things like who's good and who's bad in AOTC.

She gets confused because the stormtroopers were bad in OT but now they seem to be fighting with the Jedi who are good guys and that throws her. I've explained to her that they turn bad later on because of the emperor. Its the intial confusion that I'm talking about here. I never had any confusion as a 5 yo watching ANH who the bad guys were.

Darth Wong wrote:
So the no one is a good guy in the Clone Wars angle is bad for kids.
I told my son that clonetroopers just follow orders and they don't care whether they're good or evil orders. He had no trouble at all understanding this. How old do you think a child has to be in order to comprehend this?

It's the not needing to explain anything at all that I'm talking about. My mother took me to see ANH when it came out - I was 5 - and she spoke very little to no English. She couldn't explain the movie to me, in fact I translated some things for her but she got the plot and enjoyed it without knowing the language. A testament in my opinion to the storytelling in ANH. (The translations were for things like What is the Force?)

Darth Wong wrote:
For a modern example of this simplicity in storytelling LOTR was immediately simple for my daughter. Orcs look bad and they are bad. Ringwraiths look bad and they are bad. The heroes look like heroes and there isn't much ambiguity for her to deal with.
That's because despite all of its atmosphere, LOTR has all the thematic maturity of The Cat In The Hat.

Its a simple story, a myth of good vs. evil. I didn't go into LOTR expecting Waiting for Godot. Once again, my mom sees the movie with little knowledge of English and thoroughly enjoys it. My Dad was bored out of his mind. To each their own. I think the success of the films speak to the success of the story and movie over the criticisms of length to me.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-02 08:30pm

I never had any previous conceptions about the Clone Wars. For me it was just some big unknown, and for some reason, my imagination never attempted to fill in all the blanks.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-02 08:54pm

My daughter has a thing for old men.

*shudders* Don't SAY that

....unclean.

I always imagined the clone wars to be when both sides began cloning dudes as warriors, with vast armies of clones clashing as heavy artillery rained down upon them.[/quote]

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-05-02 08:56pm

VT-16 wrote:
Why the hell would you call a civil war where mega-corporations fielded hordes of war droids against the Republic's own clones, 'the clone wars?' It makes no fucking sense.
It´s the first major conflict where clones are used as armies, that´s why.

You're telling me that in the tens, even hundreds of thousands of years of galactic civilization, this was the first time anyone thought, 'hey, why don't we use clones as troops?'