The Imperial Guard

[Jadeite]

Ok, I have a question about them. Lucas says that stormtroopers are clones, and several sources say that the Imperial Guard are selected from the ranks of the stormtroopers, and are regularly rotated back into service with them. But my question is, in the scenes in Palpatines office in AOTC, you can see two members of the Guard standing in the background. Are they clones?

[Sardaukar]

Palpatine's guard existed before the Stormtroopers, so I doubt that guardsmen come from the Stormtrooper ranks, so they aren't necessarily clones.

[Jadeite]

Palpatine's guard existed before the Stormtroopers, so I doubt that guardsmen come from the Stormtrooper ranks, so they aren't necessarily clones.

Yeah, but there are a few EU sources (like the guide to characters) that say that the Imperial Guardsmen were once stormtroopers.

[Sea Skimmer]

Palpatine's guard existed before the Stormtroopers, so I doubt that guardsmen come from the Stormtrooper ranks, so they aren't necessarily clones.

Yeah, but there are a few EU sources (like the guide to characters) that say that the Imperial Guardsmen were once stormtroopers.

The guardsmen might have original drawn from whatever unit protected Coruscant in the Republic. That unit likely got replaced by Stormtroopers at some point but kepy supplying the guard.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

(Comes out of the shadows in his red robe and shiny red helmet.)
(Bolsters force pike.)
(Suspiciously looks around at participants of the thread.)

I'll be watching you...

(Moves back into the shadows, still facing everyone.)
(His red robe and helmet slip into the dark.)

*For those of you that didn't notice, IRG (points at name) means Imperial Royal Guard.

[Acclamator]

Those Imperial Gaurds were cool.

There's one of the graphic novels covers the training process.

They would train together for ages, then as part of selection, they had to spar with none other than Darth Vader.

IIRC, it would be whittled down to two. They would go for kinda advanced training, during which they would naturally bond with each other and so on... and then only at the end, when they thought they were both about to become royal garuds, was the true horror revealed - only one of them would actually go through, and the final test involved the two of them battling each other - to the death.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Yeah, I hated killing my best friend. And Darth Vader was such a BITCH. If it weren't for that choking....

[Darth Yoshi]

Guardsmen are stormtrooper elites. They're the best of the best. In Crimson Empire, Kir Kanos fights on par with Carnor Jax, a guardsman who happens to be a Force adept. The ones guarding Palpatine in AOTC probably weren't clones, though. My guess is that they're the guys from TPM, and they won't be phased out by the stormtroopers until near or after the end of the Clone Wars.

[Master of Ossus]

It may be that the officers in the stormtrooper core are not actually clones, and come from people who are trained to be where they are. That would make some amount of sense, because clones are designed to be totally obedient and subservient.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Lucas never says "Stormtroopers are clones" IIRC.

He remarks on how he had Jango bang his head on Slave 1 to provide a link between a stormtrooper banging his head in the OT.

Furthermore, Lucas' statements are not a matter of record within the SW media itself.

This, combined with the fact that stormtroopers as all clones needlessly fucks up continuity and doesn't make any sense from a logistical, propogandist, or sociological point of view, I disregard that bullshit.

The whole idea behind the Grand Army of the Republic being clones is that this army was prepared in secret and funded by whomever. Palpatine was easily able to rouse war by simply nationalizing this force. No need to conscript troops from quite independent worlds and bringing body bags back later.

Clones as stormies foots a huge bill in constructing troops when well-tested, well-trained and augmented troops makes for a perfectly functioning army as far as stormies go.

Personally I feel that the stormtroopers were originally the veterans of the Republic's Grand Army. Beyond that, the clonetroopers were the conceptual ancestor of the stormtroopers. Stormtroopers by the OT period were likely mostly recruits, but some forces (mostly in black operations and assualt fleets) were probably clones, and a story for such clones is already provided by the short story Pax Emperica. These troops were important enough and few enough to explain why they were decimated by the time of Thrawn's ascention. Also few enough to rouse knowledge among the Rebels and the Imperial Senate, etc.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Guardsmen are stormtrooper elites. They're the best of the best. In Crimson Empire, Kir Kanos fights on par with Carnor Jax, a guardsman who happens to be a Force adept. The ones guarding Palpatine in AOTC probably weren't clones, though. My guess is that they're the guys from TPM, and they won't be phased out by the stormtroopers until near or after the end of the Clone Wars.

Does it occur to anyone, that Palpatine's oh-so-elite guards are not going to be men in their 50s to 60s? Of course initially they're just the like-armored Chancellor guards, but eventually they're stormtrooper elites specially trained to protest His Imperial Majesty.

[Master of Ossus]

The fact that General Veers commands stormtroopers, but is clearly not a Jango Fett clone himself, confirms that the officers in the Imperial Army are not clones, but does not bar the stormtroopers themselves from being clones. I would, thus, assume that the stormtroopers used for the Imperial Guard are not, in fact, clones, but regular people who have been highly-trained.

Incidentally, Lucas does not comment on the Jango-head thing. It's one of their FX directors who does.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The fact that General Veers commands stormtroopers, but is clearly not a Jango Fett clone himself, confirms that the officers in the Imperial Army are not clones, but does not bar the stormtroopers themselves from being clones. I would, thus, assume that the stormtroopers used for the Imperial Guard are not, in fact, clones, but regular people who have been highly-trained.

Incidentally, Lucas does not comment on the Jango-head thing. It's one of their FX directors who does.

Really? Thanks for the correction.

[Sardaukar]

The fact that General Veers commands stormtroopers, but is clearly not a Jango Fett clone himself, confirms that the officers in the Imperial Army are not clones, but does not bar the stormtroopers themselves from being clones. I would, thus, assume that the stormtroopers used for the Imperial Guard are not, in fact, clones, but regular people who have been highly-trained.

Incidentally, Lucas does not comment on the Jango-head thing. It's one of their FX directors who does.

Stormtroopers are seperate from the Imperial Army and Navy, that's why Veers and every other Imperial officer is not a clone. The Imperial Army and Navy recruit through "The Academy" the Stormtrooper forces do not. Stormtroopers are clones. Army/Navy/Death Star Troopers are not. Lucas does indeed state that the Stormtroopers are clones in the commentary, I will find the exact quote(s) when I go home if I can be bothered.

Anyway, back on topic...
Just checking up Royal Guards on StarWars.com, there is no mention of them being drawn from Stormtrooper ranks. Whether this is a new edit or not I can't tell, but it seems like the official stance at present is that the original core Royal Guards (in AOTC) were drawn from the best of the best Senate guards (the blue guys) and during the Empire "Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty".

[Master of Ossus]

I thought that in one of the Tales from the Empire, Veers is described as undergoing training in stormtrooper armor, including combat training for space, radiation, magma, etc. If he succeeded particularly well in any of those areas, he would have been turned into one of those troopers, but the fact that he scored very highly on the AT-AT made him an AT-AT commander. Wouldn't that support my conclusion that the officers are actual people, and the enlisted are clones?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

I thought that in one of the Tales from the Empire, Veers is described as undergoing training in stormtrooper armor, including combat training for space, radiation, magma, etc. If he succeeded particularly well in any of those areas, he would have been turned into one of those troopers, but the fact that he scored very highly on the AT-AT made him an AT-AT commander. Wouldn't that support my conclusion that the officers are actual people, and the enlisted are clones?

Quite possible, boss dude.
And IIRC the hierarchy of skill among the Imp infantry is this:

Imperial Sovereign Protector (IRG elite)
Imperial Royal Guards
Spacetroopers
(Everyone else)

[Sardaukar]

I thought that in one of the Tales from the Empire, Veers is described as undergoing training in stormtrooper armor, including combat training for space, radiation, magma, etc. If he succeeded particularly well in any of those areas, he would have been turned into one of those troopers, but the fact that he scored very highly on the AT-AT made him an AT-AT commander. Wouldn't that support my conclusion that the officers are actual people, and the enlisted are clones?

In AOTC all of the Troops of every rank are clones, as far as the movies are concerned anyone wearing white plastoid armour is probably intended by Lucas (maybe not originally, but definately now) to be most likely clones of Jango Fett.
The EU says all sorts of crazy stuff, and if it conlicts with the movies OR Lucas' current ideas then it should be discarded, unless it can be rationalised... in this case I don't think it can, because we have direct quotes from Lucas himself stating that Stormtroopers = Clones.
After all, he did make all this shit up, so he has absolute final say and can change his mind whenever and can destroy EU all he wants.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I say he can put it in the movies or other SW media, and then I'll care.

Do you realize how often he's changed his mind outright and completely reversed ideas about the "vision" of SW?

The concept that George Lucas has always had a thought-out and meticulously set-up plan on SW that he is just realizing now as it always was is sadly very, very wrong.

It makes no sense for the stormtroopers to be clones.

The whole reason for clones being the troops in AOTC is it gets around the problem of getting a loose confederation of rather independent worlds to submit to high taxes to launch a crash military program and mass conscription. Rather, Palpatine could easily pass the Act because all it required was the nationalization of a secretly constructed assault army. Constructing a national guard/reserves of sorts from conscripts and volunteers in much easier then the whole army....especially the units which would send the most body bags home.

None of this applies in the Empire, the Empire would have to somehow keep the clones all secret, somehow get most destroyed by the time of Thrawn's return, pay for the clones during the their entire lives and growth cycles, and make it so that Spaarti tech is somehow superior and everyone is still somehow oblivious to the clones.

I believe that the assault/attack groups of stormies, your front-line stormies and stormies assigned to black ops like Thrawn's campiagn, Maw Installation, all those superweapons, etc were clones. I believe the avg. stormie that spends most of his time drilling and staying aboard a Core World barracks or an Inner Rim Sector Group SD that almost never sees action....those would be volunteers. I think the officers of the clone ranks are probably the best of the volunteers and these guys are the group that they draw the Guard from.


So I think there's two groups of stormies:

Attack fleet, Unknown Territories, rough Outer Rim Sector Group, Black-ops stormies. These are clones. Their officers are the best of the volunteer stormies. Best of those become Royal Guards.

Quiet Sector Groups, garrisons, general patrol duty, most defense fleet stormies. There are volunteers.

It explains all. Stormies involved in action a lot would ideally be expected to commit more atrocities, never see leave, and listen to orders well. They'd also be more affordable and more easily kept secret then an across the board clone stormie corps (the troops in action are naturally more black). They'd be the first to die in the civil war among the Imperial factions and the first to die against the NR, first to be recalled with other elites to the Deep Core to await Palpatine's recovery and counteroffensive.

[Vympel]

None of this applies in the Empire, the Empire would have to somehow keep the clones all secret, somehow get most destroyed by the time of Thrawn's return, pay for the clones during the their entire lives and growth cycles, and make it so that Spaarti tech is somehow superior and everyone is still somehow oblivious to the clones.

EU is irrelevant to George Lucas. We can't use post ROTJ EU to say that stormtroopers=clones make no sense. Yes, it is part of the continuity, but George Lucas doesn't obey it at all. He merely takes what he likes, if anything.

However- until George Lucas conclusively retouches the OT to make the stormtroopers clones, they're not.

It seems that he will though

- The Temura Morrison voice-over 'report' (or rumor?!).
- The Stormtrooper bumping his head in A New Hope (don't laugh- we all know why Lucas had Jango bump his head on the Slave I).
- His explicit statements that lend to his intent.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Post ROTJ EU was only some of my reasons. Some of it is just it doesn't make sense. Clones are justifiable and even brilliant by Palpy in AOTC, but it just doesn't apply for the OT anymore.

[Illuminatus Primus]

- The Temura Morrison voice-over 'report' (or rumor?!).
- The Stormtrooper bumping his head in A New Hope (don't laugh- we all know why Lucas had Jango bump his head on the Slave I).
- His explicit statements that lend to his intent.

Actually, if he did that, it would just lend credulance to my theory that the assualt fleets' stormies (Death Star, Death Squadron, Vader's ANH fleet) are the clones.

[Sardaukar]

However- until George Lucas conclusively retouches the OT to make the stormtroopers clones, they're not.

Why not?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because Lucas' opinions are out-of-universe and have changed multiple times over the years. If you actually look over the evolution of Lucas' comments, you get the impression that the Grand Vision of Star Wars (tm) has hardly remained the same or cohesive over the last 25 years.

There's a good reason for clones in AOTC. There's not for clones in the OT. Put out of universe comments plus stupid implications plus needless continuity fucking equals compromise theory/don't give a shit what he says, until its put into the movies.

[Sardaukar]

Because Lucas' opinions are out-of-universe and have changed multiple times over the years. If you actually look over the evolution of Lucas' comments, you get the impression that the Grand Vision of Star Wars (tm) has hardly remained the same or cohesive over the last 25 years.

There's a good reason for clones in AOTC. There's not for clones in the OT. Put out of universe comments plus stupid implications plus needless continuity fucking equals compromise theory/don't give a shit what he says, until its put into the movies.

That's retarded, what Lucas says goes. He's free to change his mind whenever he wants.

[Boba Fett]

According to Zahn's trilogy (which was accepted by Lucas, and he said if he would make the episodes from 7-9 he would base on these books) all the cloning vats were destroyed in the Clone Wars.
The only cloning device which is still operating has been hidden away in the Emperor's secret fortress. I can't remember it's location but in the novel "The last order" you can search for it.
That's where Luke confronts with his own clone.

So, to get back to topic the stormtroopers are NOT clones!!!

Several other books mention that they're recruited HUMAN "elite" soldiers.
Although we never see them, the main body of the Imperial Army are common troopers. Stormtroopers are the elite of these troops.
Elite stormtroopers can advance to Zero-G stormtroopers or if they hit the required parameters and has the ability to use the force they can be choosed to be Royal Imperial Guards.
These guards don't have any relationship with the Republic Senate Guards.

The Royal Imperial Guards are the highest trained ex-stormtroopers, veterans of several battles and they are thought by the Emperor personally to some minor force ability.
Their number calculated between 15000-50000.
After the BoE all the Royal Imperial Guards withdraw to the Core systems, probably to Byss.