Imperial Fleet tactics

[pellaeons_scion]

Ok, Ill start with saying that this question might be awkward to answer as there doesnt seem to be a great deal of evidence to prove this, so I guess its more a hypothetical question.

Anyway..

Fleet tactics. Given the size of SW vessels, their preponderance of weaponry covering many firing arcs, and for some a sizeable strikeforce of fighter-class ships, How important would tactics still be? Would Fleet-level manuvering still play a factor, or would they rush each other all guns blazing and see who's shields fall first. Would there be Fire-discpline, IE a earth warship takes its orders from FireControl, and all the crews do is train weapons to that given target and fire ONLY when FC gives the order. Or do the TL crews have freedom to target whatever vessel they wish and whatever components they choose?

To me, this latter tactic seems a little simple, and foolish. I seem to remember a line in Darksaber that had the Shockwave destroy a vessel (VSD I think) in a single barrage, and that many of the other vessels were attacking similarly, with hardly any evidence of a ship targeting more than one vessel at a time. Seems like the ships were firing all-gun salvos, and that a ISD could shatter a VSD in a single volley. Granted this a KJA work...

Also, given the currently known strengths of the larger ships shielding, would the smaller craft even have a chance to engage one, or would it be simply a futile gesture for say a Neb-B to engage a VSD or StrikeCruiser. Or would it take a a squadron of smaller vessels to engage such ships and no doubt suffer considerable losses.

Or, in battle do ships only engage vessels that are their own size or smaller. In that case a fleet engagement would become a general melee.

In short, how complex is naval combat in the SW universe. Is it merely a case of once the shields are down the ship is only one step from destruction? Or is a vessel well capable of continuing the fight unshielded and still have a chance of winning
Any ideas appreciated.

Ta

[Raptor 597]

In my opinion, note my opinion thing are orderly on the way in. But assuming they get in point blank range, it's a brawl. However, orderly it'sc still a brawl coming down too Squdrons & lines holding together, and eventually the Captain's comptence themselves.

[pellaeons_scion]

So, whilst the vessels are at range, a fleet commander would be directing the attack from their flagship, also would be able to command ships to direct fire at certain designated targets, but once the ships are too close it becomes a brawl?

Personally I envisage a battle as thus: Fleet drops out of Hyperspace at either beyond scanner range, or at optimum weapons range. Fleet then forms whatever formation will give most ships the best amount of guns to a target. Fighters and bombers are launched, whilst Fleet command then directs his ships to destroy selected enemy vessels with HTL fire.

Meantime the picket vessels rush forward to exploit shield outages or weaknesses on the larger ships, and/or attempt to take postition behind the fleet, harrying them from the enemy vessels rear, which are usually less defended. Meantime the cruisers, battleships etc keep a steady, co-ordinated bombardment of selected ships, possibly leaving any counter-battery strikes to picket vessels such as strikecruisers etc which have moved closer and can bettery ID what ship is causing the cruisers problems.

Perhaps having a Interdictor attempt to move into position behind the enemy fleet may be an advatage as well, as the enemy has to choose whats the bigger threat.


just my opinion. Viewed from a more naval standpoint

[Jim Raynor]

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh4.htm

[pellaeons_scion]

An interesting read. However, does this mean that the capital ships in battle merely sit at optimum range and deliver a sustained attack, with its only defence being its shields? Also, it seems that the smaller ships can do little to a Cruiser or destroyer until its shields are down, as their weapons could not produce the amount of energy required to cause a shield failure.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Ok, Ill start with saying that this question might be awkward to answer as there doesnt seem to be a great deal of evidence to prove this, so I guess its more a hypothetical question.

Anyway..

Fleet tactics. Given the size of SW vessels, their preponderance of weaponry covering many firing arcs, and for some a sizeable strikeforce of fighter-class ships, How important would tactics still be? Would Fleet-level manuvering still play a factor, or would they rush each other all guns blazing and see who's shields fall first. Would there be Fire-discpline, IE a earth warship takes its orders from FireControl, and all the crews do is train weapons to that given target and fire ONLY when FC gives the order. Or do the TL crews have freedom to target whatever vessel they wish and whatever components they choose?

To me, this latter tactic seems a little simple, and foolish. I seem to remember a line in Darksaber that had the Shockwave destroy a vessel (VSD I think) in a single barrage, and that many of the other vessels were attacking similarly, with hardly any evidence of a ship targeting more than one vessel at a time. Seems like the ships were firing all-gun salvos, and that a ISD could shatter a VSD in a single volley. Granted this a KJA work...

Also, given the currently known strengths of the larger ships shielding, would the smaller craft even have a chance to engage one, or would it be simply a futile gesture for say a Neb-B to engage a VSD or StrikeCruiser. Or would it take a a squadron of smaller vessels to engage such ships and no doubt suffer considerable losses.

Or, in battle do ships only engage vessels that are their own size or smaller. In that case a fleet engagement would become a general melee.

In short, how complex is naval combat in the SW universe. Is it merely a case of once the shields are down the ship is only one step from destruction? Or is a vessel well capable of continuing the fight unshielded and still have a chance of winning
Any ideas appreciated.

Ta

Well, when one engages in fleet combat in space, one must remember that it is a three dimensional affair and very, very big. SW ships have to have all those weapon arcs because an enemy attack could come from any direction.

From the movies it looks like the favored Imperial formation is a vaguely wall-like formation several ships high and several ships deep. This provides them with the following advantages.

A) The formation can defend itself against attacks from almost any direction. The ships are close enough together that they can put down a lot of defensive fire all over.

B) The formation can bring an obscene amount of firepower to bear against targets in front of the "wall."

C) The formation is compact enough that it can be deployed quickly.

However there are some disadvantages.

A) Imperial ships have to remain fairly close together in this formation. The problems with this are graphically demonstrated in both TESB and ROTJ. In TESB, the Rebels were able to slip a few transports through by temporarily disabling an ISD and then flying the transports as close to the stricken vessel as possible. Since the formation was too closely spaced, the other ISDs couldn't target the transports. In ROTJ, Lando orders the Alliance fleet charge the Imperial wall. Again, Imperial spacing, or lack thereof, prevented the DSII from being deployed optimally against the Rebel fleet.

[pellaeons_scion]

Thanks for your reply!
I can see your point. Iguess the only problem I see with that is the formation you describe is the one from ROTJ. And I believe it was less a battle formation than a blockade type manuver, more denying a point of attack or escape for the rebel fleet. Also it was a good formation as it was unlikely the rebels could flank the fleet to minimise the Imperial fire coverage, due to Endor being on one side and the DS on the other

BTW dont suppose anyone has ever gamed that combat out to see what really would have happened after the DS went bang? Be intersting to see how it would have turned out in a Wargamers hands.

Also that Imperial formation would be problematic if rebel vessels got too close, a lot of chance of friendly fire accidents

[Boba Fett]

Yes, Battle of Endor is not the best example in that case.

There's a scene when a rebel frigate taking on an ISD at point blank rate while fighters flying through between them.
It should not happen just in a critical case like BoE was.

I think the usual tactic should be like this:

1. Fighters taking on other fighters
2. Fighters taking out incoming bombers with the help of their mothership.
3. When all enemy fighters cleared out fast interceptors may go in against the enemy capital ship, doing strafing attacks. Not for doing real harm to it, rather to take away the defense fire from the following friendly bombers.
4. When the bombers has taken out a specific part of the enemy capital ship, (usually the one that protects the main reactor or the fire control) the friendly capital ship closes in and finish it off with her turbolasers.

On large scale battles I think the Admiral divide the fleet, creating battlegroups and assign them different targets.
Each battlegroup is ordered to attack a specific target but the leader of the battlegroup is free to decide how to accomplish his task and what to do after he has finished it. (He can choose another enemy or back up another friendly battlegroup)

The most important thing is communication! It's badly needed to harmonize the manouvers and tasks for the different battlegroups.

In RoTJ one of the first imperial ship that fell was the comm. ISD.

[Boba Fett]

4. When the bombers has taken out a specific part of the enemy capital ship, (usually the one that protects the main reactor or the fire control) the friendly capital ship closes in and finish it off with her turbolasers.

I mean, taking out a specific shield part!

Most of the fans and even Lucasarts in their games treat shields like it was one thing.
In fact every ship has back and forward shields. Capital ships has side shields as well which can be taken out while others are still operating.

Remember the moment in BoE. The Executor has lost her forward shield allowing an A-wing to make a kamikaze run.
In fact the other shields of the Executor were still oprerating.
The whole rebel fleet couldn't break through it's shield even if they concentrate all fire on her.
BTW, the fire was concentrated on the Executor after the command bridge was destroyed.
With that act all the battlestations remained without control.

Something went wrong with the engines as well and the fall of the Executor was rather an accident then the victory of the rebel cruisers.

[Lord Pounder]

To me, this latter tactic seems a little simple, and foolish. I seem to remember a line in Darksaber that had the Shockwave destroy a vessel (VSD I think) in a single barrage, and that many of the other vessels were attacking similarly, with hardly any evidence of a ship targeting more than one vessel at a time. Seems like the ships were firing all-gun salvos, and that a ISD could shatter a VSD in a single volley. Granted this a KJA work...

The Shockwave was a non-standard Destroyer with "high energy lasers".

[pellaeons_scion]

Was it? I havent seen any specific stats for the Shockwave. And I dont remember a reference to any special weaponry. Is there evidence of this?

So command and control is an important factor in SW combat. However there is a degree of flexibility by dividing the fleet into battlegroups. This would make sense to me, as I dont believe one person (Unless your Thrawn!) could control all manuvers of the fleet. Perhaps Fleet command merely assigns targets priorites then directs battlegroups to attack as they see fit. Then from Battlegroup commanders, the battle tactics and manuvers are then carried out, giving flexibility to the battle

Bombers....This is one point which bothers me regularly. If it takes another capital scale warship of a simililar size and power to knock down a warships shields, how can bombers, with weaponry that doesnt seem to be near as powerful, attempt to knock core components out if they cant breach the shields. I could be missing something here, perhaps shields have holes opened in them to allow HTL fire out, but that seems like a big vulnerability.

In short, are bombers and heavy fighters any viable threat to a ISD or MonCal? Or are they just filling the sky with targets for capship AA fire

[Captain Cyran]

Just gonna respond with one sentence.

Read Khan's books.

There, all that needs to be said has been said.

[pellaeons_scion]

Kahn? Whos that?

[Oberleutnant]

I guess he means Zahn...

[pellaeons_scion]

Ah, Zahn. Now it makes sense. Yes they were good, however I still would like some clarification on my above post. My only problem with Zahns writing is that it seems that most of his stats etc are taken from WEG sources....which have some 'interesting' ideas.

IE ion cannon that passes through shields, missiles etc being viable weapons against capships, and single fighters actually damaging a ISD...

[Captain Cyran]

Damn my errors and a lack of an edit button!

Damn them....

[Boba Fett]

Bombers....This is one point which bothers me regularly. If it takes another capital scale warship of a simililar size and power to knock down a warships shields, how can bombers, with weaponry that doesnt seem to be near as powerful, attempt to knock core components out if they cant breach the shields. I could be missing something here, perhaps shields have holes opened in them to allow HTL fire out, but that seems like a big vulnerability.

In short, are bombers and heavy fighters any viable threat to a ISD or MonCal? Or are they just filling the sky with targets for capship AA fire

It depends on the size of the shield strength of the target and on the weaponry of the bombers.

Bombers going in, firing salvos of protontorpedoes.
30 torpedoes on a same shield part will make a hole in that shield section.
Then one can make the hole deeper with turbolasers.
So bombers are useful tools, but one must ensure their safety and prevent such circumstances that allows them to make their quick and devastating attack.

This tactic not really works against the Mon Cal. cruisers however.
These cruisers usually have four or more shield generator.
If one generator goes off then the other ones spread the shield to the uncovered area as well. Same applies when a specific shield part goes down and the generator that is responsible for this area can't build up the shield in the required time.
Of course this way the overall shield strength is weakening but there is no unshielded part, only for seconds.

[Lord Pounder]

Was it? I havent seen any specific stats for the Shockwave. And I dont remember a reference to any special weaponry. Is there evidence of this?

Yeah i can't remmeber the exact wording, this is KJA's work and i tried to mentally block it, But i remember seeing that it was 1/3 longer than an ISD and it had "High-Energy Weapons, thats why it was the flagship of whatever warlord owned it. Please don't make me read that shite again to come up with a direct quote.

[pellaeons_scion]

No problem DP I wont ask you to hurt your brain by reading his junk. Ill flick through it myself and try and find that reference

[pellaeons_scion]

In reference to the bombers:

So unless the bombers attack in force, the attack would be negligable. Ack, Id hate to be a bomber pilot then, holding a formation that would bring the most torpedoes to hit a targeted point on a shield. Even with jinking and altering course slightly, you would still be a prime target for AA gunners.

I guess its possible, but it seems a costly tactic. Also you mentioned that the torpedoes could make a hole in the shields, that the TL's could make deeper. Does this mean that the shields are some kind of dense energy field, that the weapons chip away at, hoping to make a breach before the shield generators can reinforce that area? If so, that would make most weapons fire fairly useless up to the point of a shield breach.

Seems that hte battle, up to the point of shield failure, is a constant battering of firepower, with no damage being able to be caused (how frustrating). On that, what is the refresh rate of SW shields, in comparison with recharge/firing rates for HTL's? Would attacks on more than one shield facing be advantageous, as it would force a greater amount of energy to be routed to shield reinforcement, lessening the amount of energy to weapons? Is it harder for a vessel to recharge two shield facings than just one?