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I've been debating whether to wait for ROTS to ask this to get a full accounting of the differences in their experiences but maybe we can just focus on Luke and his experiences and perhaps revisit the question of Anakin and his when the movie is finally released.

Luke's journey was supposed to mirror Anakin's in development so that they would each have similar experiences but Luke would make some key choices differently that woudl lead to his rejection of his father's path.

What was it about Luke's experiences that made him signifcantly different then his father?

Was it his being raised to full adulthood by his Aunt and Uncle? Were they in fact better parents than Shmee? Was Luke instilled with a core set of values that Anakin missed out on?

Was it Luke's ignorance of his heritage? Would we have seen luke react differently if he had been told since a young boy that he was the son of suns? What if Obi Wan told him stright out - you're the heir to the most powerful Force using bloodline in history? You will be a kick ass Jedi and perhaps you are the Chosen One and not your dad?

Was it Luke's choice of friends? His rebel allegiances were not so firmly set in ANH until he set off on his advnetures. He meets up with Leia, Han and Obi Wan and they all show him how evil the Empire truly is and how badly the Rebels need to win. Leia, Han and company are no where near the monk like intensity, secrecy and authoratarianism of the Jedi Order so Luek is more free to develop as he chooses and form close bonds.

Was it Luke's ability to let go? GL has stated numerous times that one of the lynchpins of Anakin's fall is his inability to let go of things, to accept change. Luke accepts the deaths of his aunt and uncle, he doesn't dwell on it or let it make him vengeful and angry. He accepts it and uses it as inspiration to join the alliance. Luke walks away from the rebellion at Hoth to go to Dagobah wihtout hesitation. He also walks away from Leia and Han with a short and sweet good bye but there's little hesitation in the action. He goes to rescue them on Bespin out of loyalty and love not out of a sense of 'stopping people from dying' as his father would say. Luke accepted the loss of his hand with little remorse.

Was it Luke's gentle nature? Yoda's comments aside Luke was no where near as angry or as headstrong as his father. He did not fly into a rage and slaughter Tuskin villages or fight against Obi Wan's or Yoda's teachings. His rebellions in the student master relationship was only to learn more not that he thought they were holding him back. His essential question is why? Anakin's was why not?

So what are your thoughts on Luke's character that made him choose differently than his father?

Struggles to answer this as best as possible without spoiling Stravo ...

In TPM Anakin said; I heard Jedi couldn't die.

In AotC Anakin said (after his mother's death); Someday I will become the most powerfull Jedi ever, I'll even learn to stop people from dying.

Luke dealt with the death's of his Uncle and Aunt better than Anakin. Not to mention when Anakin was growing up, the Jedi were supposed to be the guardians of 'peace and justice', and yet slavery was still practiced and the Senate, to whom the Jedi were subserviant, were weak and corrupt.

For Luke though, the Empire and the Sith weren't meant to stand for any such thing (despite propaganda). It was easy for him to join the rebels, and thus the Jedi (what was left of them).

Anakin on the other hand, had the Jedi who were following a Senate which was possibly amoral at best, but more likely immoral, and at the same time trying to achieve the hight of his powers and seeing his mother die in his arms, despite chosing the path of the Jedi.

Also, according to official sources, Luke has a 2d + 2 Resistance to Dark Side Seduction.

Since the majority of Jedi don't fall, a better question might be what is different about Anakin, rather then what is different about Luke

Ender wrote:Since the majority of Jedi don't fall, a better question might be what is different about Anakin, rather then what is different about Luke

Yeah, but then again all the other Jedi didn't have Palpatine whispering in their ear about how he had orchastrated the capture of his friends, the destruction of their fleet, and how with one swift strike of his lightsabre, Luke could end it all either so ...

I'm guessing it was the upbringing.

Luke had a fairly normal upbringing by two grounded people who were, from the looks of things, good parents.

Aniken was a slave with only one parent. He also probably knew he was special as not only could he podrace as a kid, but (IIRC) he was the only human on the planet that could.

Why? Because he was lied to.

First, let's look at Anakin, or what we know. As a young boy, he's kept in slavery with no choice. The only thing he has, is his dreams of being a powerful Jedi, able to free those who are in bonds. Then suddenly, he is whisked away, with almost no choice but to leave his mother behind.

In Attack of the Clones we see a young, brash Jedi adolescent, turning into an adult. One that can make choices probably as well as any other person. Albeit lacking the experience, but it's highly evident he has suffered and survived prior the the Jedi teachings. Not to mention countless tales of his abilities. Every opportunity he has to excel, surpas and upsurp those who are just flat out not as able as he is, he's held back. Completely. Anakin kicked ass in the droid factory. More then likely, if he didn't have to worry about Amidala, then he would have been clear enough in conscience to handle the situation. With that said, Jango would have been overly fucked, much earlier. Yes, Anakin at AotC was that much better then Obi-Wan.

With that said, and we know how ANH works, Obi-Wan can only beat Anakin through one method. Knowledge. Obi-Wan knows Anakin enough to take advantage of his former padawan and most trusted friend during the fight.

Regardless, Anakin was alway pent up. He was someone who really needed to be unleased and allowed on his own course. However, this was not the case, and the Dark Side was his avenue out of the gutter.

Later on we have a new hope. A farm boy, raised by a modest moisture farmer and his wife, in the most remote desolate place possible. If there's a bright side to the galaxy, this is the place furthest from. Possibly, Luke is exposed to death and the hardships of life early on. Not in the situations that occur from slavery, but from growing up in a naturally hostile environment. Tuskins, Womp Rats, and the occasional fueds. Luke understands that you can't stop death, a natural cycle.

Luke soon comes to understand that the Empire is evil, and needs to be stopped. He knows that who he believes to be the biggest threat also betrayed Ben Kenobi and his father, Anaking Skywalker. He must be stopped for the GOOD of the galaxy. Unfortunately, in a rush to save his friends, he is slightly blinded by the chance to face off against Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith. Upon this event, Luke learns the devestating truth. There's more to life then he knows. With this knowledge, and stroke of luck he regroups, taking to heart the words and wisdom of Yoda, the Jedi Master who had instructed him in the ways of the Force. Yoda never once lied to Luke. Never did he say they were two different entities. Only that Luke was much like his father, and that only a fully trained Jedi could stand against Vader. Both, were true. Luke is reminded by his vision in the cave, his artificial hand, and the fact that Darth Vader, who was once Anakin Skywalker, is his father.

With Vader defeated and his life in Luke's hands, is is then young Skywalker realizes the truth. Now he knows how to break the cycle. To end the tyranny of the Emperor. Luke was a Jedi, like his father before him. Then at that moment everything came to light, and he was still in control of his feelings and emotions. All of his experiences, his pasts, and his presents were evident.

He was never held back. No one was ever jealous of him. He was heralded as a hero early on and supported by friends. What he set out to do on Bespin, he accomplished high above Endor. He had friends he knew he could save, people to protect, and he knew how to do it.

That's also why DE sucks balls, and I hate most of the EU. They don't have this grasp of Luke and his decision.

Some would argue that Luke did fall (and redeemed), or at least stood on the precipice and leaned as far forward as possible. I don't recommend playing the Star Wars drinking game (take a shot whenever Luke gains a Dark Side Point). Your liver would hang itself after such abuse.

How about 'Anakin was a maladjusted little fuck'? It's a good thing he got picked up by the Jedi: little bastard would've got his ass killed on Tatooine.

I say one major contributing factor is age, obviously.

Robert Walper wrote:I say one major contributing factor is age, obviously.

How so? Anakin was around... eh... call it 25-ish when he became Vader. Luke was about the same age when he confronted Palpatine. Or do you refer to other points in their lives?

Stark wrote:How about 'Anakin was a maladjusted little fuck'?

How about... not? Since Anakin was a good kid, lead astray by incompetents.

The Jedi failed him with their 'NO ATTACHMENTS' clause in the contract. Not even allowed to see his mother. Then he gets a hard on for Padme so he has to slap it down - that only makes it worse. Obi-wan acknowledges he failed Anakin in his teaching. The old guy blamed himself.

It's a good thing he got picked up by the Jedi: little bastard would've got his ass killed on Tatooine.

I doubt it.

Stofsk wrote:

It's a good thing he got picked up by the Jedi: little bastard would've got his ass killed on Tatooine.

I doubt it.

Agreed. He grew up there, after all; most likely he would've stayed with Watto for a fair while, perhaps shuttling back and forth between owners; undoubtedly his skills as a podracer would've been quite valuable. Of course, if he got *too* good, then certain... elements of society would've had discreet interest in making sure that either a.) he won, or b.) he didn't. How they go about option B would most probably prove rather interesting...

He's a MASS MURDERER. That didn't just happen overnight: if he'd stayed on T, he would've been a violent little bastard WITHOUT telekinesis. That wouldn't have ended well.

I guess he could have ruled Mos Espa with an iron fist of terror.

Ruling Mos Espa? Hardly. He was a slave, remember? Plus, for all he was a brat, he was still a pretty nice little kid. He might've taken over Watto's shop when the old fart went into retirement, but that'd be about it unless Clegg Lars came along, then he'd be yet another Tatooine farmboy...

The way i see it is : Luke was more a person than a Jedi, meaning he had lived a full normal life as a farmer leaning moral and view of Ethics from the lars family before he even learned about the force (age 17 i belive).

As the odd man that joins a closed circle Luke viewed the force more as a tool for helping his friends but also Luke was adapt at many things non-force relatet, the indoctrinatet Jedis (including Anakin) who has been trained from a very early age viewed the force as the answer to everything,and when you only have one answer and it fails ..you fail.

Most importanly of all i think the fact that Luke had "normal" friends ment the most,he never felt above the normals,nor did he have any desire to control or manipulate them.

I would suspect that not having his chain jerked by Jedi non-attachment theology helped. That and the fact that his adoptive parents were clearly better than Anakin's upbringing.

Stark wrote:He's a MASS MURDERER. That didn't just happen overnight:

Actually... yes. It did. Literally. Remember the Tuskens? If the Jedi hadn't shoved no-attachments theology down his throat then that would never have happened. Hell, do we get any idea what kind of counselling they gave Anakin? They probably didn't give any, considering their own bias against emotions of any sort.

I guess he could have ruled Mos Espa with an iron fist of terror.

But why? The only way I can see it being worse is if Palpatine gets to Anakin before the Jedi do, similar to what happened with Maul. But was Palpatine even aware of Anakin before he met him on Theed?

Stofsk wrote:

Stark wrote:He's a MASS MURDERER. That didn't just happen overnight:

Actually... yes. It did. Literally. Remember the Tuskens? If the Jedi hadn't shoved no-attachments theology down his throat then that would never have happened. Hell, do we get any idea what kind of counselling they gave Anakin? They probably didn't give any, considering their own bias against emotions of any sort.

How did the one lead to the other?

Crown wrote:How did the one lead to the other?

Anakin had dreams about his mother in danger repeatedly, but wasn't allowed to go visit her. Remember AOTC? He could only go to Tattooine when he was with Padme. AWAY from the Jedi council and Obi-wan and from their bullshit affairs. But by then, it was too late. Now if the Jedi didn't have this no-attachments clause in the fine print, he would have been able to go to her that much sooner, at the very least to check up on her. Once there, he would of course find out that she had been taken prisoner. Then he would go and hunt for her, perhaps at that time even going with Cleeg Lars and his posse. His mum would have been found alive. If she had been rescued, then one of the causes of his fall would have been averted.

Plus, I believe there's a ROTS spoiler somewhere that states: the Jedi have no personality because they're not allowed to form attachments and emotions are frowned upon. Because of this, you get anomalies like during the Clone Wars where people like Dooku or Sora Bulq can turn Jedi to the Dark Side simply by putting forward a convincing argument. This also explains Palpatine's manipulations of Anakin. The Jedi theology is not sufficient to guide Anakin through the grief he carries with him over his mother's murder, and when he sees Padme and the possibility of her dying in his dream, he falls to the dark side because he hasn't been properly guided to deal with those emotions. Think of it as repressing one's emotions. It doesn't do anything but make them stronger, and when they finally do come out it's destructive. The Jedi don't have the capability to deal with very real human emotions, their only recourse is to repress them. This leads to their fall.

I think you're missing the point of the 'no attachment clause'. If Anakin had the Jedi detachment, he wouldn't have given himself over to the Dark Side when butchering the Sand people.

Not that I'm suggesting that the OR Jedi's philosophy on the matter is correct, but really, your point is silly and self contradictory.

Crown wrote:I think you're missing the point of the 'no attachment clause'. If Anakin had the Jedi detachment,

An ideal that's unattainable? How is that better? If Anakin's mother's murder meant NOTHING to him, how is that better? Fuck, I'd think he was a sociopathic mongrel. A ticking time bomb.

he wouldn't have given himself over to the Dark Side when butchering the Sand people.

He killed them because he lost control of his emotions.

This is precisely because of the Jedi teaching him that his emotions are bad. If they taught him that emotions don't necessarily lead down the dark path, that attachments AREN'T bad, then he wouldn't have lost it the way he did.

Remember, Anakin kept Tattooine a secret from Obi-wan. WHY? He did nothing wrong. He killed a bunch of murdering thugs. Jedi do that all the time. WHY DID HE KEEP IT FROM OBI-WAN? Because he did what he did due to his attachment to his mother.

Seriously. Jedi kill people all the time. You could get away with calling Obi-wan and Qui-gon killers just based off of killing droids, with them being sentient creatures. Hell, Rune Haako intimated to Nute Gunray that they "Will not survive this" as Qui-gon is busy melting through the door. What do you think he was referring to? Anakin has no trouble slaughtering Geonosians in the factory, and we're lead to believe that's acceptable but the Tuskens AREN'T? The Geonosians are only protecting their facility, they're security guards! The Tuskens were violent thugs who think nothing of torturing a middle aged WOMAN for fuck's sake! If it were me, I'd BDZ the fucking place, then dump a whole lot of salt over the area.

But he was lead to feel guilty because he called upon the dark side. WHY? Because he had an attachment, but the Jedi frown on attachments. THey lead to the dark side! Except if it weren't for this theological position on their part, Anakin would have seen his mother that much sooner. If he had rescued her, the impetus for her fall would have been removed.

Attachments do not lead down to the darkside; that's the irony of the saga. It's the fact they reject attachments that lead them down to their fall.

Not that I'm suggesting that the OR Jedi's philosophy on the matter is correct, but really, your point is silly and self contradictory.

No it isn't. He did dream about his mum, Obi-wan says at the start with a dismissive "Dreams pass in time." Except it may not have been a dream, it may have been - in fact, was indeed - precog, the Force telling Anakin that his mum was in danger. The Jedi don't give a flying fuck. If they DID care, then Anakin would have gone to check on his mum much sooner. If he had done that, he would have found his mum still alive and thus, could have been rescued. If she doesn't die, how can he fall to the darkside? He lost it after she DIED. If he saves her, he wouldn't have falled to despair and fury.

And those emotions are not dealt with by the Jedi at all. Anakin hides what he did from everyone except Padme. The only person in the entire galaxy he can trust. Then what happens in ROTS? He dreams SHE dies. He then decides he's not going to let that happen.

Stravo wrote: Luke's journey was supposed to mirror Anakin's in development so that they would each have similar experiences but Luke would make some key choices differently that woudl lead to his rejection of his father's path.

I remember hearing that as well, but upon reading the script and novel of RotS, their development isn't exactly mirrored. It's really not much alike, IMO. There are similarities, but not many.

Was it his being raised to full adulthood by his Aunt and Uncle? Were they in fact better parents than Shmee? Was Luke instilled with a core set of values that Anakin missed out on?

I think it was that Anakin was taken away from Shmi both far too early to be an adult and too late to be a Jedi, not that she was an inferior parent. Though really, the whole "too old" thing is a bit of an unjustified tradition. Count Dooku turned to the dark side at the age of seventy, while Luke Skywalker was trained at an unprecedented old age of 20-23 and turned out fine. And you've also got to keep in mind that the very first Jedi certainly weren't trained from the age of one (TPM novelization).

Was it Luke's ignorance of his heritage? Would we have seen luke react differently if he had been told since a young boy that he was the son of suns?

It's possible. Where does "the Son of the Suns" come from anyway? Anakin had the whole 'Chosen One' thing in him, after all.

What if Obi Wan told him stright out - you're the heir to the most powerful Force using bloodline in history? You will be a kick ass Jedi and perhaps you are the Chosen One and not your dad?

That would be a very bad move. It would make him proud and arrogant. Traits which Luke doesn't have by the time of RotJ- though he does in TESB (the very act of fighting Vader was foolish pride, as evidenced by his "you'll find I'm full of surprises" line during the fight- right as he foolishly grips his saber with one hand and gets it knocked out of his hand.)

Was it Luke's choice of friends? His rebel allegiances were not so firmly set in ANH until he set off on his advnetures. He meets up with Leia, Han and Obi Wan and they all show him how evil the Empire truly is and how badly the Rebels need to win. Leia, Han and company are no where near the monk like intensity, secrecy and authoratarianism of the Jedi Order so Luek is more free to develop as he chooses and form close bonds.

I'd say that's part of it. I think it's also the political situation. Anakin serves the Republic. In the situation he is in by the time of RotS, it's very easy to become confused between the Jedi Order and the Republic- i.e. who to follow. Of course, the Republic is personified to Anakin by Palpatine- not the Senate.

This is really important. Anakin was friends with Palpatine for over ten years. His greatest confidant was a Sith Lord. Who constantly stroked his ego and built him up.

Was it Luke's ability to let go? GL has stated numerous times that one of the lynchpins of Anakin's fall is his inability to let go of things, to accept change. Luke accepts the deaths of his aunt and uncle, he doesn't dwell on it or let it make him vengeful and angry.

True.

He accepts it and uses it as inspiration to join the alliance.

Well more he used it as a way to become a Jedi and learn the ways of the Force, like his father. He already wanted to join the Alliance before that, following his friend Biggs.

Luke walks away from the rebellion at Hoth to go to Dagobah wihtout hesitation.

I don't think thats it- he probably saw his training under Yoda as being part of his fight for the Rebellion, rather than seperate.

He also walks away from Leia and Han with a short and sweet good bye but there's little hesitation in the action.

Yeah, but he was sure to see them again. Anakin has little trouble doing that either, with both Obi-Wan and Padme. It's when they're in trouble that they both have issues.

He goes to rescue them on Bespin out of loyalty and love not out of a sense of 'stopping people from dying' as his father would say.

I think it's the same. Luke was not prepared to sacrifice Han and Leia (I find it odd he doesn't mention Chewie ...) and Anakin is not prepared to sacrifice his mother, Padme, or Obi-Wan.

Luke accepted the loss of his hand with little remorse.

Anakin did that too.

Was it Luke's gentle nature? Yoda's comments aside Luke was no where near as angry or as headstrong as his father. He did not fly into a rage and slaughter Tuskin villages or fight against Obi Wan's or Yoda's teachings.

He flew into a rage and attacked Stormtroopers recklessly when he saw Obi-Wan get cut down- and he ignored Yoda and Obi-Wan's counsel to run off to Bespin. He also flew into a rage at Vader's goading about Leia in RotJ. Not as bad as Anakin, true.

His rebellions in the student master relationship was only to learn more not that he thought they were holding him back. His essential question is why? Anakin's was why not?

So what are your thoughts on Luke's character that made him choose differently than his father?

All of my post are pretty much mine. I think it's mostly Palpatine + Padme.

Anakin was in close frequant contact with a Sith Lord for much of his adulthood while Luke only met his Sith Lords briefly.