Stravo wrote:He argues with Obi Wan in front of their charges about what's implicit in their orders. Obi Wan has to bitch slap him verbally to get him to shut up.
So? He argues with Obi-wan by bringing up a good point: investigation WAS implied in their orders, Obi-wan was being less than honest with Padme and not giving her the full story. Then he backed down when Obi-wan put him in his place.
If he were a rebel he would have said "Whattaya got?"
He argues down Padme in front of the Queen of Naboo. Real diplomat and gentlemen our young Anikan is.
And he's not a diplomat nor gentleman. He saw it like he was being coddled, and his temper got the better of him. She chastised him, and he BACKED DOWN. If he were a rebel, he would have decked Padme and done things his way (like GL wrote in one of the ANH drafts).
He sets up a trap using Padme as bait without Obi Wan's permission.
Shows initiative and Obi-wan didn't scream at him "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?" indeed, Obi-wan took it in stride and agreed with it.
How does this show him as a rebel? Oh wait, it doesn't.
His going off to find mommy putting the senator's life at risk and leaving her alone for about a day with only a cripple and a farmer and his GF as protection. Was it implicit in the Council's orders to leave her completely unproetcted while he went to find mommy?
She let him do it in the first place. He didn't want to abandon the mission but he was torn between the two. Padme heard his pleas and wasn't unsympathetic. She was an 'enabler'.
Placing the mission to capture Dooku at risk twice: First when he first tries to stop the pursuit to get Padme back, only a threat of expulsion snapped him back.
Again, already dealt with. He 'came to his senses' didn't he?
Second disobeying his master's direct orders when attacking Dooku like an idiot.
So he was reckless, not necessarily rebellious.
I'd say that's what we call a history of rebelliousness.
I wouldn't.
So setting up a trap using Padme as bait wihtout telling him and arguing about their mission in front of Padme was all signs of him being a good apprentice before he got out from under Obi Wan's wing?
The first is not the sign of a rebel at all.
The second showed a mild disagreement between the two and tension develop, but he backed down, didn't he? You don't get it, if he was this superrebellious little brat he wouldn't have backed down. He spoke out of turn because he's a padawan. He's not the cutting edge when it comes to subtle negotiations.
Excuse me? He explicitly states he is disobeying the council's command.
So what? The Council didn't tell him to stop. True, he didn't call them either. Big deal.
Hmmm....I have all the examples cited above. He is NOT a good little soldier. He follows his instincts not his orders.
"Trust your instincts" Obi-wan says that... to LUKE.
Jedi are given free range to trust their feelings.
Jumping off of speeders without warning in the middle of a chase,
Which catches the bitch.
setting traps that place their charge in danger without telling his master,
I didn't hear Obi-wan condemn Anakin for that. He seemed to allow it too.
leaving his charge completely alone when he goes off on personal business,
Fantastic, Stravo. Let's have Padme join him on his hunt for the Tusken raiders.
charging Sith lords against his master's orders,
WHAT orders? "You go in high, I go in low" What kind of bullshit is this? That's not an order.
He paid the price for his reckless attack ANYWAY.
trying to override his master's orders and botch the overall goal of capturing Dooku - That was Yoda's over arching order at the Battle of Geonosis -
What are you talking about?
and confronting his master on almost every decision he makes throughout the movie, incuding such nice digs like: "You think your senses are more developed than my own?"
Maybe they were.
If you think that the movie showed Anakin and Obi Wan as having a relationship akin to father and son then fine. I dont happen to agree with that. Look to the OT with two exampled of a father-son like relationship between a padawan and his master: Luke and Yoda. Luke and Obi Wan. If Luke turned against either one and dueled with them that would be tragic. In this instance we can't wait for it.
Obi-wan and Luke was a father-son relationship. Yoda-Luke was sure as shit nowhere near a father son relationship.
NO he doesn't. If Padme said "You're right we'll stay." then end of story Anakin stays put.
And she doesn't. So my point stands.
All of that does not change the fact that if Padme said "You're right we're going to stay." he stays put. He did not make the decision. She did. He had no power in that scene at all. There was no consequence to that action when you have it watered down by Padme. Imagine on Dagobah if Ben's Ghost winks and nods at Luke and says "I can't help you if you chose to confront Vader but I'm going to Bespin."
The way the scene plays out you can tell he wants to go but had his hands immediately tied by the Council. The very POINT of the scene is that he was powerless.
This is a man that he says is like a father to him. We see none of that in the movies.
You just gave examples of Anakin saving or rushing to his master's aid. Certainly speaks of a bond between them, in my book.
Padme was not his daughter. He knew her for all of a week total time and before that a few days as an 8 yo? There's a WORLD of difference between a child parent relationship and some chick you're digging on.
Oh fine, the point I was trying to make is put yourself in his shoes. Someone you've fallen in love with has just been injured. Wouldn't you want to save her?
And Obi Wan did teach him how to deal with those feelings,
What a crock. He didn't teach him how to deal with love, attachments or grief. All three of which are relevant to what happens to Anakin.
his mom was considered something that will pass in time. Whether that is a shitty way to approach attachment and human emotion (IMO it certainly is) thats still evidence that Anakin was taught how to try and cope.
In a very banal and trivial manner that belies the importance we place on attachments. I blame the Jedi Order for that.
My criticism of his character (including whinage) development was focussed on his refusal to go save Obi Wan.
WHAT refusal? Did he order Padme away from the flight controls? Did he 'saber it so they would be stranded on Tattooine? NO. He got into the copilot chair. Your criticism is bunk because Anakin didn't flip the council a bird and jump into the chair like John Wayne.
My criticism of that scene on the LAAT is that it is another exmaple of his rebellious attitude.
And I counter by pointing out he acquiesces ANYWAY. He knows he must do his duty. Why should he have to like it?
As a Jedi he is supposed to listen to his master. The only time Obi Wan spoke back to Qui Gon was when Qui Gon's decisions were placing him in danger (ie. against the council)
So what? Obi-wan is a different character to Anakin. And he was much older than Anakin was relative to his relationship with his master at the time. Obi-wan in TPM was 25, meaning he's progressed past puberty. Anakin is still a teenager.
In fact she goes down in danger and he immediately wants to throw the mission out the window.
And he comes to his SENSES. "She would do her duty." And so will he. But he doesn't have to LIKE it. Why should he? The girl of his dreams may possibly be dead or dying on some alien shithole backwater world. I'd want to put the ship down too.
Obi Wan is in danger on Geonosis and he wants to hang out on Tatooine. (Yes yes, thank Padme he didn't)
Missing the point AGAIN. Anakin has been consistently shown to follow orders even when he doesn't like them. When he lets his temper go he gets chastised for it. Here Mace Windu ordered him to his face to stay put. So he complies, initially. What the hell is so wrong with that?
Any particular reason why Padme rates being drubbed out of the Order and Obi Wan rates obedience?
Because he's thinking with his cock? Is this a serious question?
Sure, Luke was a whiney bitch but he grows up throughout three movies. Anakin was a horrible child actor in the first movie and a whiney twat in the second. Now he's going to be a murderous bastard in the last movie....when exactly did I get a chance to like him? To give a shit that he fell?
You haven't seen the last movie so don't prejeduge it.
As for TPM, yes I agree with you Jake Lloyd was horribly miscast.
As for AOTC, he wasn't a whiny twat. Or if he did whine it could possibly be because he was being treated like a child and he was whining about that. Nevertheless he still did what he was told to do.
"Follow my lead." "You will learn your place, young one" "Come to your senses!" "Stay with the Senator."
He takes it all. He's a Padawan and he listens to his masters, even when he doesn't understand why. When he rebels it's out of desire for autonomy. How is this a bad character development?
Once again if Padme states "You're right, we're not going." Anakin stays put.
But she didn't. So my point still stands.
There was no decision made on his part other than go along with her but the power, the impetus, the prime mover of that scene is Padme and it robbed Anakin of any kind of power, development and display of bonding between Anakin and Obi Wan.
Why? Did you not consider the possibility that Padme might have been acting as the 'enabler' for him? That she was the 'bridge' that could link them together and strengthen the bond between Anakin and Obi-wan, which is ironic considering the LAAT scene she serves as a wedge to deepen the divide? He's supposed to be powerless and helpless - as is Obi-wan at the moment. Padme was the one with the power, and she moved so that they could be reunited.
I'm glad you developed the mutant gene for telepathy.
You've only said it repeatedly for several years now. I wasn't trying to be a smartass.
I didn't want Obi Wan to be a padawan in TPM, I didn't want Anakin to be a child in TPM. In terms of character development what I WANT is to believe that this is a father son or at least best friend relationship between these two men. I don't care how its portrayed in the sense of whether its through their trading quips (Han and Luke) Wisdom being handed down (Obi Wan and Luke) Homoerotic love (Chewbacca and Han) or what have you.
Ok. WTF.
Homoerotic love between Chewie and Han?
For the record, the interplay between Anakin and Obi-wan strikes me as an 'odd couples' relationship. Two people who like each other but at the same time can't stand each other. There is affection there, but also arguments.
Wanting implies that I have something in mind on how it should be done. Thats not the case but I do want a style and process that worked in the OT.
Why? It would just be same old, same old.
For all of Luke's whining in ANH there was no doubt that he and Ben shared something quiet and special. GL accomplished in 1/3 of a movie what he has not been able to accomplish in 2 movies.
What I AM saying is that I'm not buying what we have seen as showing us a father son or best friend relationship.
Obviously I disagree.
He didn't feel like breaking the rules for Obi Wan. Simple as that.
Balderdash. He did break the rules for Obi-wan. She was the enabler in the scene, but only because she took the decision out of his hands immediately and didn't argue over it 'in committee'.
Thought experiment: let's say she didn't immediately turn the keys in the ignition and started the ship up. Lets say they argued over whether they could go to Geonosis. Maybe the scene plays out longer or whatever. You're of the mind that he would still respect the council's orders? Because I don't get that at all. He doesn't order her to stop the ship or put it down. He smiles and climbs into the copilot seat.
Now you say "She had the power in the scene." I say: EXACTLY. She's the one who MUST have the power in the scene. Because both Anakin and Obi-wan are helpless: Obi is a prisoner, Anakin has been ordered to stay put. They both need to be with each other, but they can't do it. If Anakin disobeyed the Council openly, he would have been punished. What you're saying is this is acceptable. I say it's not. If Anakin flipped the bird off to Mace and went to Geonosis anyway, he'd be in trouble after the day's events had come and gone. Obi-wan would be 10x more embarrassed at his wayward Padawan because not only did he DEFY the council but he also put himself and the Senator at risk. This to you is BETTER?
But the way it turns out is Padme made the decision FOR him. Anakin saves face. You make it sound like Anakin is some evil snot for not rushing to Geonosis - he had just been ORDERED to stay put. Defiance is not tolerated easily in the Jedi order. Anakin makes an innocuous comment to Obi-wan in front of civilians, and the latter rebukes him and humiliates him "You will know your place!"
You say there's no character development. There's your development, right there. He goes from the start of the film following Obi-wan's lead and apologising and saying "I try to do better, Master." "Yes master" and so on. Through the course of the film he bit by bit gains autonomy until at the very end its to the point of recklessness. Then he learns that recklessness costs him an arm. You see it as 'whiny brat gets what he deserved'.
Hmmm....a good kid that slaughters women and children. I think you need to rethink that statement.
Not at all. They were all combatants. Everything we've been told about the Tuskens is that they're brutal, savage fucks. The children grow up to become like the adults. The women are no different from the men, just because they have a vagina instead of a penis doesn't mean they didn't participate in the raids. They could be like the Fremen of DUNE, legitamate targets.
Anakin was a good kid. He then went insane for a brief amount of time. He felt bad about it though. He hated them. They murdered and tortured his mother. He killed them out of revenge, out of fury.
Welcome to the human race. It ain't pretty.
He was evil in my opinion because he turned his back on his master.
And as I've laboured to point out, he actually didn't turn his back on his master.
He spent 1/3 of the movie on the hunt for his mom, putting Padme at risk, his own Jedi hood at risk, slaughtering an entire village of relative innocents
The same innocents who were happy with torturing a middle aged woman for several weeks? Yeah, really innocent.
in the process then later BLAMING Obi Wan for being a murderous little fuck
FOR HOLDING HIM BACK!
"Dreams pass in time." EXCEPT IT WASN"T A FUCKING DREAM. It was precog, telling him or warning him someone close to his heart was in danger - funny that, his mum was busy being tortured on Tattooine. Obi-wan coldly told him where to stick it.
In a very real sense, Obi-wan and the Jedi Order as a whole were to blame for what happened at the Tusken village.
"No. You heard Master Windu, I'm to stay right here."
You see it as a character flaw for him to follow his orders. Except you don't quite get it, he had been chastised by the Jedi Council. This isn't Mace having a friendly chat and telling Anakin "Oh by the way love, just stick there will you, no need to get involved what." (yeah I gave Mace a nasally British accent, so sue me)
Mace wasn't having a conversation with Anakin. He was TELLING HIM WHAT TO DO. Stay the FUCK there. DON'T get involved. PROTECT the Senator.
Ohhhhh....denied. Nice one there Ani.
Your blame is misdirected. Mace gave him an order. An order Anakin later disobeyed in the span of several second after communication was terminated. Just gloss over that though. I'm sure it doesn't mean anything. I mean, you're upset he didn't IMMEDIATELY leap into the chair while telling Mace to suck his fat one.
Glad to know that your mom and a piece of trim you barely know is more important to you than a man you earlier claimed was like a father to you. Christ I'm glad I don't have a son like that.
Wow.
If you prevented your son from seeing his dying mother in time? That's... harsh. That really is. And the son still forgives you, because you're in danger too and instead of staying away like your friends have told him to, he comes to your aid anyway?
Obi Wan risked the wrath of the council by demanding to train Anakin - for love of his dead master's final wish. Anakin spit in his face by choosing to follow the council. I'm supposed to like this kid?
Except he didn't spit in his face. He disobeyed the order anyway.
So would you prefer I state that Anakin is just an evil horrible person that I feel little to no sympathy for and feel that the only tragedy in ROTS will be that Obi Wan doesn't kill him instead of beating him? Fine, I will. GL is in no way shape or form at fault for writing an unlikable character to base the tragedy of the fall of a hero on.
What's your problem? The interplay between the two characters is clearly different from what was in the OT. Why should we have old repainted as new?
An 'evil horrible' person? For what? Following orders? I can say that Obi-wan was a horrible person for not letting Anakin go see his mum. I can say the Jedi are evil for their no attachments policy.
He was evil for what, killing a village of murdering psychopaths? He was horrible for what, not immediately jumping into the copilot seat (oh he delayed for 10 whole seconds! The prick)?
Make flatulent noises everytime Anakin starts practicing with his lightsabre