StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The EGWT states that thermal detonators offer incredible precision, by allowing an operator to precisely annihilate anything within a fixed radius from the weapon when it goes off while leaving things outside of that radius unscathed. This explanation was supported by Star by Star, when the Jedi infilitration team used the weapons to similar effect.

This description of their operations has long since been dismissed as ridiculous. How can an explosive possibly leave things outside of its blast radius unscathed, while annihilating anything inside of it? The explosion should continue.

It occurred to me, however, that thermal detonators may just operate as advertised. The seismic charges Jango Fett used against Obi-Wan in AotC demonstrate that SW weapons can somehow channel and focus destructive energy. A thermal detonator, then, could be one application of this technology, but instead of creating destruction along a seemingly-infinite plane, it could allow an operator to destroy things in a sphere with a given radius.

Thoughts?

When seen in that context, Thermal Detonators do seem a bit more realistic (especially if one was to say compare it to the very odd properties of phasers.)

I thought the description of the devices in Star by Star was a bit over the top though. The team carries dozens of throwable detonators, each capable of enihilating a diameter of what, one hundred feet? Seems a bit much compared to previous sources, which describe devices that powerful as being at least mortar-sized.

Thermal detonators are tricky. Some descriptions pain them like phaser bombs - they disintegrate everything inside via chain reaction. Other call them small fusion devices. Problem is that you can't really make a fusion device less then 100 kt, and most of the sources that call it such also say that they have a fragmentation shell - go figure that one.

No real good answer on them.

Master of Ossus wrote:It occurred to me, however, that thermal detonators may just operate as advertised. The seismic charges Jango Fett used against Obi-Wan in AotC demonstrate that SW weapons can somehow channel and focus destructive energy. A thermal detonator, then, could be one application of this technology, but instead of creating destruction along a seemingly-infinite plane, it could allow an operator to destroy things in a sphere with a given radius.

The seismic charges still spread destruction outside the initial plane thanks to the asteroids caught in it. Wouldn't the thermal detonators also still cause damage outside their sphere? Even if there's no heat involved, there's still going to be "shrapnel" spreading out beyond the sphere's limit from anything caught in the blast itself.

Its still stupid; the energy is allowed to be expended in the siesmic charge, just in a particular plane.

How can it just stay inside the sphere? This violates thermodynamics. The energy which is vaporizing the contents must escape somehow.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its still stupid; the energy is allowed to be expended in the siesmic charge, just in a particular plane.

How can it just stay inside the sphere? This violates thermodynamics. The energy which is vaporizing the contents must escape somehow.

Many of the descriptions of Detonators exploding make it seem like rather than vaporising material, it seems to expand a dimensional bubble or something around the effected area and then make everything in it simply disappear. Very weird.

Master of Ossus wrote:It occurred to me, however, that thermal detonators may just operate as advertised. The seismic charges Jango Fett used against Obi-Wan in AotC demonstrate that SW weapons can somehow channel and focus destructive energy. A thermal detonator, then, could be one application of this technology, but instead of creating destruction along a seemingly-infinite plane, it could allow an operator to destroy things in a sphere with a given radius.

Thoughts?

Doesn't work. The seismic charges directed the blast, in order to do what the thermal detonator does you'd need to have something outside the ball itself which directs the blast. *thinks*

Perhaps the Thermal Detonator comes equipped with a very low-grade force field which can be set to a certain distance. Just before the grenade goes off it puts up the field? I don't know how it would manage to take out walls and the like then as the field would get in the way, or perhaps the field just doesn't conform to things in its path.

Perhaps the Thermal Detonator comes equipped with a very low-grade force field which can be set to a certain distance. Just before the grenade goes off it puts up the field? I don't know how it would manage to take out walls and the like then as the field would get in the way, or perhaps the field just doesn't conform to things in its path.

this doesn't work either. Because when the detonator goes off, surely the shield generator would be destroyed and then shield would vanish, thus releasing the unchecked energy into the environment.

Lightsabers share this sort of property (having a sharply defined 'end'). So it's not imposible that SW tech could do something similar but spherical.

Prozac the Robert wrote:Lightsabers share this sort of property (having a sharply defined 'end'). So it's not imposible that SW tech could do something similar but spherical.

A lightsaber also has the quality of leaving its mechanical bits intact instead of having them get consumed in its use.

A lightsaber also has the quality of leaving its mechanical bits intact instead of having them get consumed in its use.

But a lightsabre is sending energy in one direction.

X = hilt. Y = Blade T= field creation thingy

XXXXXXXXTYYYYYYYYYYYY

Thus the energy is not affecting the casing or the mechanical parts.


with a thermal detonator, however, the destructive force is being sent out in all directions, thus the hypothosised field generators are going to be caught up in it.


X= thermal detonator T =field generator, Y = destuctive force


YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
YYYYYYYYYTXXYYYYYYYYYYYY
YYYYYYYYYXXXYYYYYYYYYYYY
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

unless of course this proposed field generator is somehow immune to the detornators explosive effects.

Fragmentation shell? Perhaps the relevent mechanical bits are thrown outward and are not destroyed.

And I don't think a requirement of this is that absolutely no destruction occurs outside the listed radius, but rather that we have a sphere of annhialation that doesn't emit much heat. How to do this without resorting to neutrinos I have no idea.

jasonicusuk wrote:

Perhaps the Thermal Detonator comes equipped with a very low-grade force field which can be set to a certain distance. Just before the grenade goes off it puts up the field? I don't know how it would manage to take out walls and the like then as the field would get in the way, or perhaps the field just doesn't conform to things in its path.

this doesn't work either. Because when the detonator goes off, surely the shield generator would be destroyed and then shield would vanish, thus releasing the unchecked energy into the environment.

Why? If the field is strong enough to contain the force of the detonator, it stands to reason that a field with identical strength would be able to protect the generator itself from said explosion.

jasonicusuk wrote:

Perhaps the Thermal Detonator comes equipped with a very low-grade force field which can be set to a certain distance. Just before the grenade goes off it puts up the field? I don't know how it would manage to take out walls and the like then as the field would get in the way, or perhaps the field just doesn't conform to things in its path.

this doesn't work either. Because when the detonator goes off, surely the shield generator would be destroyed and then shield would vanish, thus releasing the unchecked energy into the environment.

This all seems awfully complicated for what is for all practical purposes an expendable device. Modern hand grenades can't cost more than a few dollars a pop to make (okay, I don't know for sure, but I am of the understanding that they sell for a dollar each in some third world countries). A modern hand grenade is little more than a steel shell with a simple striker (firing mechanism), an explosive filler (usually Composition B explosive, which is not the most powerful there is, but still plenty enough to do some damage).
Treating a thermal detonator as a modern hand grenade, I don't see how all these force field projectors, and shield generators, and other bells and whistles make any sense, especially if it is simply a one-use item. In addition, the more complicated a device is, the more opportunities for something to go wrong. I know that Star Wars stuff is quite reliable, but Mr. Murphy does make a habit of sneaking up on you when you least expect it, and the more complicated devices he has to tinker with, the more likely something is to not work, especially when you need it most.

Maybe it's a scaled down version of a proton torpedo and has a sharply defined area in which it sees its primary effect, based on the size of the charge, with little control over secondary effects. I know that's going out on a limb, but if it is a true fusion device, then, as Ender puts it, it can't really be made much smaller than 100 kt yield. That would have a sharply defined radius of way too fucking close!

wilfulton wrote:This all seems awfully complicated for what is for all practical purposes an expendable device. Modern hand grenades can't cost more than a few dollars a pop to make (okay, I don't know for sure, but I am of the understanding that they sell for a dollar each in some third world countries). A modern hand grenade is little more than a steel shell with a simple striker (firing mechanism), an explosive filler (usually Composition B explosive, which is not the most powerful there is, but still plenty enough to do some damage).
Treating a thermal detonator as a modern hand grenade, I don't see how all these force field projectors, and shield generators, and other bells and whistles make any sense, especially if it is simply a one-use item.

Thermal detonators are not standard issue equipment--they're highly restricted, even though hand grenades with exotic charges are fairly easy to come by. Thermal detonators are supposed to be military-only, and are presumably quite expensive.

Why? If the field is strong enough to contain the force of the detonator, it stands to reason that a field with identical strength would be able to protect the generator itself from said explosion.

You have a good point there. This process would leave behind lots of little field generators scattered across the battle field, all still in working order, only minus their parent detonator, yes?

jasonicusuk wrote:You have a good point there. This process would leave behind lots of little field generators scattered across the battle field, all still in working order, only minus their parent detonator, yes?

If this hypothesis holds true, then it would indicate that some parts of the detonator would remain protected and potentially functional after use, yes.

cool. Point conceeded.

is it possible that shield may prevent the energy from spreading, but the generator is burned useless in the prosess.

If this hypothesis holds true, then it would indicate that some parts of the detonator would remain protected and potentially functional after use, yes.

emphasis mine.

Consider this then,
How long exactly does that shield have to be active?
And how long can said shield exist without its parent generator?

Master of Ossus wrote: Thermal detonators are not standard issue equipment--they're highly restricted, even though hand grenades with exotic charges are fairly easy to come by. Thermal detonators are supposed to be military-only, and are presumably quite expensive.

I hear what you're saying... Still, modern day militaries (at least the US) does tend to contract out to the lowest bidder, because they would produce a lot of these such things, and would want to get the best value for their dollar. I would honestly expect that something like a thermal detonator would be kept as simple as possible. This would protect you from the Murphy factor, in addition to the simple fact that it is a one use item, and there would be a movement to build one as cheaply as possible while still retaining a reliable product. I don't know, but the idea of an explosive device having a sharply defined area of effect doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And as I said earlier, Murphy likes to fuck with things, especially complicated ones.

Consider this then,
How long exactly does that shield have to be active?
And how long can said shield exist without its parent generator?

didn't we just cover this? It depends. if we are talking about a force field than the field will stop as soon as what ever is projecting it stops. If it is a starfleet cloud of exotic gasses, then maybe it will have a short dispursal time.

wilfulton wrote:I hear what you're saying... Still, modern day militaries (at least the US) does tend to contract out to the lowest bidder, because they would produce a lot of these such things, and would want to get the best value for their dollar. I would honestly expect that something like a thermal detonator would be kept as simple as possible. This would protect you from the Murphy factor, in addition to the simple fact that it is a one use item, and there would be a movement to build one as cheaply as possible while still retaining a reliable product. I don't know, but the idea of an explosive device having a sharply defined area of effect doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And as I said earlier, Murphy likes to fuck with things, especially complicated ones.

I'm not trying to say that it's the most incredibly realistic thing ever depicted, but a solution like the one that I've presented seems to allow conformity in texts that have previously seemed nonsensical. In a universe where private citizens (however unscupulous) manage to get their hands on seismic charges and where capital ships with the capability of levelling entire planets sometimes find their way into the hands of gangsters it seems conceivable that thermal detonators operate in the manner here prescribed.

Master of Ossus wrote: I'm not trying to say that it's the most incredibly realistic thing ever depicted, but a solution like the one that I've presented seems to allow conformity in texts that have previously seemed nonsensical. In a universe where private citizens (however unscupulous) manage to get their hands on seismic charges and where capital ships with the capability of levelling entire planets sometimes find their way into the hands of gangsters it seems conceivable that thermal detonators operate in the manner here prescribed.

*shrug* Shit, that sounds like as good a way to describe it as any I guess. I concede that I may be a bit primitive in my thinking that it should be just like a modern terrestrial hand grenade. This is, after all, Star Wars.