StarDestroyer.Net BBS

So far the movies (I've read only a couple of the EU books) haven't really laid out what Palpatine's ultimate goal was (Or maybe they did, but I was too busy bitching about Jar Jar and the Ewoks to notice ).

Was it merely to be Emperor and crush the Rebellion?
Convert the galaxy to the ways of the Sith?
To bring order to an unstable Republic
Something else?

In the long run his ultimate goal was to gain untold powers and imortality by using the force to leach off the life energy of all those in the galaxy, or at least the majority of the sentient citizens.

Think of it like a raise in taxes for everyone, only this time the premium would be a bit of your energy.

No, those were the motivations of a nutty clone. Palpatine's true motivations (RotS script/novel) were nowhere near something so deranged.

It's about the Sith Legacy. Destroying the Jedi Order. Getting their revenge (Darth Maul in TPM). Darth Vader was Palpatine's ultimate goal- he represented an unbelievably powerful apprentice to continue the Sith legacy, he expressed his hopes for Anakin during the duel with Yoda, and those hopes were dashed by Obi-Wan and Anakin's own folly during the duel. Luckily- Anakin Skywalker had a son, so Palpatine could set about replacing the weakened Darth Vader with a more powerful apprentice. Palpatine waited all his life as a Sith Lord for a truly powerful apprentice- Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus' were both expendable tools to that end.

I think that the Empire as seen in the OT was actually in a transitional period. What Palpatine really wanted was a Sith Empire ruled by him and his Dark Side Adepts who would basically live forever by sucking off the life energy of everyone in the Galaxy.

God Palpatine was completely insane.

Am i to understand that he plunged a galaxy into war, caused the deaths of trillions, destroyed a government and established a brutal dictatorship that caused the deaths of billions more and sparked an interstellar rebellion...so he could get an assistant to carry on his work?

Jesus Christ...this guy was not only a lying son of a bitch but also a complete sociopath. I just thought he wanted power for power's sake, which would have made him far less insane, but appearantly he's just a nutcase with a hang up on his 'legacy' and an unhealthy obsession with the name Darth.

[Size tags added ~ NL]

18-Till-I-Die wrote:God Palpatine was completely insane.

Am i to understand that he plunged a galaxy into war, caused the deaths of trillions, destroyed a government and established a brutal dictatorship that caused the deaths of billions more and sparked an interstellar rebellion...so he could get an assistant to carry on his work?

Jesus Christ...this guy was not only a lying son of a bitch but also a complete sociopath. I just thought he wanted power for power's sake, which would have made him far less insane, but appearantly he's just a nutcase with a hang up on his 'legacy' and an unhealthy obsession with the name Darth.

That is a gross oversimplification. Of course he wanted power for power's sake, he's a SITH. But there's more to it than that, as I said. What I'm chiefly concerned with is this nonsense that Palpatine planned to do all this crazy shit and planned to rule the galaxy forever and be the most powerful blah blah blah. It may have been acceptable reasoning before RotS- it ain't after. Period.

And I edited your post with size tags. Be more careful next time.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:God Palpatine was completely insane.

A good guy, he is not. Admirable, he is not. Evil, he is. Yoda and the Jedi order you should be rooting for. Despite the obvious futility of their struggle.

Sorry about not tiny-fying my post, i didnt think it was a 'spoiler' per se, my mistake


On the other hand, it really finally dispells this shit some people have thrown around about Palpy being some 'good' guy whose bringing 'order' to the galaxy.

Now, we know, he's just batshit insane and really manipulative and could give less than a shit about the rest of the galaxy. You know...if the whole trillions of deaths, long civil wars, detsroying whole worlds thing didnt make that clear enough.

He wanted to get high... so high...

I've never got the urge some people, especially some posters on this board, have to make the Empire out to be the good guys in SW. It's like fictional holocaust denial.

NecronLord wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:God Palpatine was completely insane.

A good guy, he is not. Admirable, he is not. Evil, he is. Yoda and the Jedi order you should be rooting for. Despite the obvious futility of their struggle.

I just finished the novelisation. I'm glad that Yoda came to his realisation in the middle of his duel with Sidious. The whole 'the Sith have been evolving for a 1000 years, while we haven't' idea brought the struggle into perspective. Sure it's sad that the Jedi Order came to an end,but at the same time it had to come to an end. Of course, that doesn't mean I rooted for Palpy, far from it.

I have to wonder though, why did they consider Luke as the one who would have to be trained eventually? I mean Obi-wan decides to stick close to the boy but why not train both when they come of age? Leia gets shafted more or less.

Ask the guys at the Weekly Standard... it's some political mumbo jumbo!

Or I figure it's just people saying "well the Empire is COOLER so I want them to win" (and my franchise can beat up your franchise! ie: vs. debates)

Otherwise yeah, it's weird. Usually people rooting for the bad guys means the story was poorly written (ie: the good guy characters are so unlikable, you can't help it)...


Even popular gangster movies (which are typically tragedy, like Scarface or the Godfather) which appear to glorify the bad guys, aren't really rooting for them, rather trying to make you feel sorry for (at least some of) them by showing them as not ALL bad (ie: not cardboard cutouts).

The answer to your question, Stofsk, is 'destiny.'

NecronLord wrote:I've never got the urge some people, especially some posters on this board, have to make the Empire out to be the good guys in SW. It's like fictional holocaust denial.

I think the urge comes from trying to see some good in the bad.

I don't know, make it less black and white? It's like how the Rebels weren't totally good, because they hire pirates and smugglers and other outlaws (and for every Han Solo and Lando Calrissian, there are probably others who are less... warm and fuzzy)

[EDIT] Er, I'm not saying the empire is good and the rebels bad or anything, though.

It's probably because the canonical Empire never struck me as cool so much as 'bungling' and 'totally inept.'

NecronLord wrote:The answer to your question, Stofsk, is 'destiny.'

Yes. It seems like she was shafted, but it turns out she was vital to restarting the Jedi Order anyway.

Stofsk wrote:I think the urge comes from trying to see some good in the bad.

I don't know, make it less black and white?

Despite being conceived in that manner?

It's like how the Rebels weren't totally good, because they hire pirates and smugglers and other outlaws (and for every Han Solo and Lando Calrissian, there are probably others who are less... warm and fuzzy)

I would be highly surprised if they're allowed to get away with doing unsavory things on Rebel pay. Hell, neither of them was hired by the rebels anyway,

If Palpy wanted to bring order to the galaxy, he did a piss poor job.

He ends up sparking not one, but TWO galactic civil wars, causing unimaginable death on a scale that would stagger any Earth dictator, and the destruction of entire worlds. And dont get me started on his obsession with superweapons...Death Stars, World Devastators, Sun Crushers, Galaxy Guns...all designed with no other purpose in mind than killing billions and billions of people at once and terrifying trillions more.

NecronLord wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I think the urge comes from trying to see some good in the bad.

I don't know, make it less black and white?

Despite being conceived in that manner?

I was only speculating as to their motives.

It's like how the Rebels weren't totally good, because they hire pirates and smugglers and other outlaws (and for every Han Solo and Lando Calrissian, there are probably others who are less... warm and fuzzy)

I would be highly surprised if they're allowed to get away with doing unsavory things on Rebel pay. Hell, neither of them was hired by the rebels anyway,

There was that woman in one of the X-wing novels who was a terrorist, though I'm not sure if she was atypical for a Rebel grunt. It also depends on what you mean by unsavoury.

I thought Lando was hired by the Rebellion? They made him a General after all. Han more or less joined the Rebels though, until they fucked over Leia and him at some point, which was when he gave them the finger. I think it was over the arranged marriage farce.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:If Palpy wanted to bring order to the galaxy, he did a piss poor job.

He would have gotten order eventually, but that wasn't his sole motivation. He also wanted to wipe out the Jedi. He got that one quite easily.

As to the new order, it's a bit like what do you do to repair a house that is infested with termites? Most people who feel something for the house would hire an exterminator. Palpatine/Sidious in this analogy doesn't feel anything for the house but contempt, so he burns it down. On the ashes he makes a new house.

To reiterate, he isn't meant to be liked. He is the villain after all.

Stofsk wrote: To reiterate, he isn't meant to be liked. He is the villain after all.

I know but some people dont get that, and it annoys me. I dont mind trying to see less black and white, thats fine i'm all for it. I've always kinda felt SW needed to be a little more 'gray' about some things...however...

What i mean is i've had people (not here, though) tell me Palpatine was the 'real' good guy cause he got rid of the 'corruption' of the Old Republic.

I love how he comes across in the ROTS novelisation: "You're a sith!" His reply: "I believe the Constitution protects me from religious persecution. Would you kill someone out of a philosophical difference? Well, I would. *zaps Jedi with lightning*" Such an arsehole, but at times hilariously written.

Incidentally, reading the ROTS novelisation is akin to watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Kurgan wrote:Otherwise yeah, it's weird. Usually people rooting for the bad guys means the story was poorly written (ie: the good guy characters are so unlikable, you can't help it)...

That's not it, its that bad guys are more interesting characters, period. Take a look at Darth Vader. Don't tell me you find him less interesting than Luke Skywalker. Good guys are always reacting to the bad guys. The Empire is far cooler than the Rebellion in every possible way. They have better theme music, better uniforms, better equipment, better ships, etc etc. The Empire's entire look/feel appeals to the militaristic part of us- if we have that part- i.e. the kind that marvels at military parades, etc etc.

It's probably because the canonical Empire never struck me as cool so much as 'bungling' and 'totally inept.'

For my part I understand that the film dictates that they should lose and the good guys should win, so their inability to say kill the heroes doens't figure into my estimations of how cool they are whatsoever. Look/feel/sound/concept is much more important to me in terms of "cool" factor than what they accomplish in movies where they're fixed to lose. Though "bungling" and "totally inept" is gross overstatement in any case.

Oh dont get me wrong, the Empire is cool.

But i think they're cool as bad guys see? Like for me, the Empire makes these great bat guys cause they have menacing music, faceless soldiers, sociopathic rulers...as good guys they'd be far less cool.

The Empire kinda crafted my idea of what bad guys should look/act like ever since i was a kid and i saw SW for the first time. Now everytime i see someone i dont like who will remain nameless going to make a speach i hum the Imperial Theme.

Vympel wrote:That is a gross oversimplification. Of course he wanted power for power's sake, he's a SITH. But there's more to it than that, as I said. What I'm chiefly concerned with is this nonsense that Palpatine planned to do all this crazy shit and planned to rule the galaxy forever and be the most powerful blah blah blah. It may have been acceptable reasoning before RotS- it ain't after. Period.

And I edited your post with size tags. Be more careful next time.

Forgive me, but I don't see the problem. Besides, a person's goals can easily change over 20 years, even without multiple goal transitions. Besides, if Darth Vader is his goal, he failed to get it, so he might as well try something else.