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For those who have watched the movie,
Any of you felt that Mace Windu was falling to the darkside towards the end? I sensed a great deal of darkness around master Windu, just from watching the movie:

1)His saber duel with Palpatine. I'm not sure if it was my imagination, but he way he fought seemed to be taunting in nature...? Especially that pause in the battle where raised and move his 2 arms to the side, kinda put out a "come get me Sidious" body language.

2)When he clashed with Palpatine in the duel. Was that anger I saw in his eyes during one of the close-up shots in the duel?

3)He wanted to kill Palpatine. Why was to soo eager to kill Palpatine? Come to think of it Anakin was right, it's not the Jedi way. Sure Palpatine had alot of political power, but was that an excuse or a fact?

4)Plus he practices Form 7 aka Vaapad saber style, which is bordering close to the dark side.

Anyone felt the same way I did?

Personally i didn't feel it, but afterwards when i commented on the lack of Jedi mind tricks my sister mentioned that she figured Sidious was using the Force to make Mace angrier so that he'd look more helpless and Anakin would save him.

I'm pretty sure that Sidious set the whole thing up for Anakin to see (I read the book but don't remember anything specific about this). Also, as you mentioned, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (maybe in the novel) that when Mace fights, he is always on the border of light and dark.

Vaapad I guess........ although his duel scene and death was the most anticlimatic thing in the movie ever.

Actually, it rocked. One of the best scenes ever. Palpy laughing, him screaming, Palpy shooting lightning, him screaming, Palpy laughing, him dying. God it rocked!

PainRack wrote:Vaapad I guess........ although his duel scene and death was the most anticlimatic thing in the movie ever.

Are you kidding? You expected Mace to take on a Sith Lord? Palpy owned Mace like a little bitch. It was both hilarious and amazingly cool.

Wasn't the fight unavoidably anticlimatic? I mean, it has to end in an anticlimatic manner, doesn't it?

It looked like Mace had the upper hand, and Anakin's intervention doomed the Republic right there and then.

Cykeisme wrote:Wasn't the fight unavoidably anticlimatic? I mean, it has to end in an anticlimatic manner, doesn't it?

It looked like Mace had the upper hand, and Anakin's intervention doomed the Republic right there and then.

It was Palpatine putting on act for Anakin's benefit. Come on- you really think he can put Yoda to flight in a stalemate but can actually be defeated by Mace Windu?

Ad I already said:

Given the way Palpatine handed Yoda his arse on a silver platter, there's no doubt that he could've done away with Windu that quickly. He intentionally lost it and acted helpless as you said to convince Anakin that the Jedi were fucking him over. Once Anakin saw he made a big mistake, then he knew he fucked up big time.

Rommie2006 wrote:For those who have watched the movie,
Any of you felt that Mace Windu was falling to the darkside towards the end? I sensed a great deal of darkness around master Windu, just from watching the movie:

I have not yet seen the movie(I hate waiting in line) btw in AOTC we already see a hint he his on the fence,*When he ran toward Jango* there is an angry look on his face.

Rommie2006 wrote:For those who have watched the movie,
Any of you felt that Mace Windu was falling to the darkside towards the end? I sensed a great deal of darkness around master Windu, just from watching the movie:

1)His saber duel with Palpatine. I'm not sure if it was my imagination, but he way he fought seemed to be taunting in nature...? Especially that pause in the battle where raised and move his 2 arms to the side, kinda put out a "come get me Sidious" body language.

2)When he clashed with Palpatine in the duel. Was that anger I saw in his eyes during one of the close-up shots in the duel?

3)He wanted to kill Palpatine. Why was to soo eager to kill Palpatine? Come to think of it Anakin was right, it's not the Jedi way. Sure Palpatine had alot of political power, but was that an excuse or a fact?

4)Plus he practices Form 7 aka Vaapad saber style, which is bordering close to the dark side.

Anyone felt the same way I did?

I actually thought that too. When you think about it the Jedi Order was so flawed that even Windu totally cracked. He felt total dispair. I can totally see how he could have made a considerable turn.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

PainRack wrote:Vaapad I guess........ although his duel scene and death was the most anticlimatic thing in the movie ever.

Are you kidding? You expected Mace to take on a Sith Lord? Palpy owned Mace like a little bitch. It was both hilarious and amazingly cool.

Amen, brutha!

Lord Sidious very clearly threw the fight at the end, with his sloppy footwork and deliberate posture of defeat. Notice that he intentionally edges away from him into the corner, and feigns weakness that he obviously does not feel -- as soon as he has killed Windu and disposed of him like refuse, he stands and shows not the slightest sign of fatigue or weakness, which Skywalker fails to notice in his agitated state of mind. Lord Sidious staged his defeat in order to give credence to his earlier claim that the Jedi were plotting against him.

Much of Windu's character is indeed revealed in the film. He is suspicious, spiteful, and petty, deliberately insulting Skywalker out of mistrust and spite, demanding Skywalker's obedience without giving him any trust in return (notice that he pointedly says that despite Skywalker's free choice to tell him that the Supreme Chancellor is a Sith Lord, Skywalker will only earn his trust if he is in fact a Sith Lord). He also agrees to a coup d'état, attempting to overthrow the Supreme Chancellor based on unsubstantiated suspicions and political disagreements (the Jedi are subordinate to the Judicial Department, itself under the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, and certainly had no jurisdiction to demand that the Supreme Chancellor lay aside his emergency powers or step down from office, given that both the emergency powers and the special dispensation to remain in office were given by the Senate, which the Jedi serve); he freely disregards the legal authority of the Senate and the judiciary, and decides to commit premeditated murder when he decides that the justice system will not handle Lord Sidious to his satisfaction.

This says nothing of Windu's morals -- indeed, he was morally in the right, for the Supreme Chancellor was a danger to democracy, the Republic, and the galaxy in general. It does, however, point to Windu's willingness to disregard Republic law and Jedi principles when they do not suit his purposes. Though intended to protect the Republic and its peoples, his actions ultimately facilitated the death of the Republic and the birth of the Empire. It cannot be denied that Lord Sidious was telling the truth: The Jedi Order had indeed attempted a coup d'état. The best propaganda, of course, is that which is based at least partially in fact.

PUBLIUS

I would imagine that the Jedi are oath bound to defend the Republic and the freedom of its people, not the Chancellor's office, perhaps not even the Senate. All enemies, external and internal, would be the argument. Sidious would most certainly fall under the latter.

Indeed. Even modern day militaries have to look out for the possibility of a gov't going too far and unless clones or droids, they're not going to be completely loyal. Of course, the military could also do a coup d'etat itself...

NecronLord wrote:I would imagine that the Jedi are oath bound to defend the Republic and the freedom of its people, not the Chancellor's office, perhaps not even the Senate. All enemies, external and internal, would be the argument. Sidious would most certainly fall under the latter.

The Jedi Order is a religious sect and as such is ultimately bound by its own principles; this is not disputed. For purposes of promoting the greatest good for the greatest number, the Jedi seem to have formed a permanent alliance with the Galactic Republic. Consider for a moment, however, the political implications of an unelected, non-democratic religious sect unilaterally disregarding the political process and choosing to depose a duly elected head of state because they disagree with his politics. This ill represents their respect for the democratic principles of the Republic.

It is true that the Supreme Chancellor was a Sith Lord and a treasonous war criminal, but the Jedi Order did not in fact know that. The Jedi High Council suspected (without evidence) that the Supreme Chancellor might be under the influence of a Sith Lord, but they had no evidence of this; the investigation in Labyrinth of Evil established that Lord Sidious did indeed exist, but little more than that. They certainly had no evidence of the Supreme Chancellor's treason and war crimes.

In essence, the film presents an example of dramatic irony: The audience realizes that Mace Windu is doing the right thing, although Windu himself is doing it for the wrong reasons. Mace Windu agreed to a coup d'état because he did not trust or like Palpatine anymore, and thought he should surrender his emergency powers (something that was not the Jedi's decision to make). The audience, however, knows that the overthrow of Palpatine is necessary because he is a very dangerous Sith Lord that has manipulated the entire war from the beginning, and is actively plotting to destroy the Republic.

For his part, Windu has only Skywalker's word regarding the Supreme Chancellor's Sith alter ego and war crimes, but the film shows that the Jedi were already planning to force the Supreme Chancellor out of office and assume power before this information was revealed. The Jedi were already considering the removal of an incumbent Supreme Chancellor on its own initiative and by its own authority because of a political disagreement (i.e., the Jedi disapproved with his conduct of the war, and didn't like either his special dispensation to remain in office or his emergency powers, both granted by the Senate which Kenobi emphasizes that the Jedi serve); the fact that he was also a Sith Lord was convenient, the icing on the cake.

Yes, the Jedi might be sworn to uphold the Republic above all else, but the fact of the matter is that this was not what they were planning to do when they planned their coup. They did not yet know the true extent of the Supreme Chancellor's treachery; they were simply planning on ousting a politician they did not like. They had no right to interfere in the political process by demanding that Palpatine step down; that is a decision for the Senate to make. Windu himself disregarded Republic law and Jedi principle by deciding that neither the Senate nor the courts would properly deal with Palpatine, so he would simply kill him.

So what you're saying, AV, is there's a limit on SLM's 'bad motherfuckerness'?

What now? Mace and the other Jedi weren't going there to kill him, they wanted to arrest him. The Jedi initiated the arrest attempt, but Palpatine initiated the fight.

And what was Mace going to do when Palpy was scuttling on his ass? That's right, he was going to kill him because he was too dangerous to keep alive, because he owned the senate and shit.

That's true, but Mace wanted to arrest him to begin with - not kill him.

But it was still an inevitable eventuality - or maybe not, seeing as how Palpy also killed his drinking buddies. Meh.

Joe wrote:What now? Mace and the other Jedi weren't going there to kill him, they wanted to arrest him. The Jedi initiated the arrest attempt, but Palpatine initiated the fight.

Consider the situation for a moment. When Skywalker told Windu that he had just learned that the Supreme Chancellor was a Sith Lord, Windu said that he was already on his way to ensure that the Supreme Chancellor surrendered his emergency powers; earlier, Ki-Adi-Mundi had said that if the Supreme Chancellor did not surrender his powers, he should be removed from office, while Windu stated that the Jedi would have to "take control" of the Senate after removing the Supreme Chancellor. This is nothing less than a coup d'état, based on nothing more than the Jedi High Council's dislike of the Supreme Chancellor's policies.

Furthermore, for what crime exactly did Windu mean to arrest the Supreme Chancellor? The crime of holding emergency powers lawfully awarded by the duly-elected Senate? This was Windu's stated intention for going to see the Supreme Chancellor. He did not know that he was a Sith Lord, and he certainly had neither proof nor reasonable suggestion of any wrongdoing on the Supreme Chancellor's part. Without any sort of judicial procedure or even proof of criminal activity, the Jedi attempted to remove from office the head of state because they disliked him and his politics. The sheer hubris and disregard for democracy and law inherent in this -- not to mention Windu's willingness to commit premeditated murder on the grounds that the judiciary would not find the way he would have liked -- is no great argument in their favor.

It is not the Jedi Order's place to pass judgment on political affairs such as term limits and emergency legislation, which is what they thought they were doing. They were fully prepared to oust the Supreme Chancellor from office without knowing that he was a Sith Lord. That "knowledge" -- which consisted almost entirely of Skywalker mentioning that he was a Sith Lord -- was belatedly tacked on at the end of the coup's preparations, and even that consisted of one man's word and no evidence.

It is true that it would have been better for the galaxy had Windu's cloister coup succeeded. It is no less true, however, that Windu's actions, while right in and of themselves, were undertaken for all the wrong reasons. Ironically, it was the theocratic despot Lord Sidious that used the democratic process to consolidate and legitimate his power, while Windu, the vaunted leader of the Republic's guardians, that disregarded its laws and process in favor of his own wishes and prejudices. Windu's motivations were reprehensible, if his actions themselves were not.

Well we have to keep in mind Mace's shatterpoint ability (if you are an EU fan that is) So it's likely Mace knew something was up with Palpatine and the information provided by Anakin was the final piece to the puzzle. For all we know there is a law on the books outlawing the Sith. So perhaps they were arresting Palpatine on those charges. After Sidious killed the other three Jedi so easily and dueled with Mace, Mace realized he was far to dangerous to just arrest.

Publius wrote:

Joe wrote:
Furthermore, for what crime exactly did Windu mean to arrest the Supreme Chancellor?

Mace was not intending to arrest him at all UNLESS Palpatine refused to set down the powers that were given to him ONLY for as long as the current war lasted.

Once the general was killed the war was effectively over and the powers granted by the senate purely for the war were no longer needed.

Once Mace learned that Palpatine was a Sith Lord this changed completely. At that point he would be arrested for no other reason than being a sith lord.

This does lead to the question of whether or not the Jedi have gotten it into the laws of the Republic that the study of Sith teachings is a crime unto itself.

MrAnderson wrote:This does lead to the question of whether or not the Jedi have gotten it into the laws of the Republic that the study of Sith teachings is a crime unto itself.

They are not. Being the Darth Sidious known at this stage to be the puppet master of the Seperatists however, is a crime. Grievous BDZed several core worlds when under Sidious' command. That's several trillion murders there.