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During Palpatine's conversation with Anakin in the opera house, I got the impression that the Sith Lord Plagueis that Palpatine was talking about was Sideous' own master, and that Sideous was the apprentice who killed him in his sleep. Is there anything in the EU to confirm or deny this?

Drooling Iguana wrote:During Palpatine's conversation with Anakin in the opera house, I got the impression that the Sith Lord Plagueis that Palpatine was talking about was Sideous' own master, and that Sideous was the apprentice who killed him in his sleep. Is there anything in the EU to confirm or deny this?

I could be wrong, but iirc in earlier versions of the script and possibly the novelization, Palpatine states flat out that it was he who killed Plageius.

Drooling Iguana wrote:During Palpatine's conversation with Anakin in the opera house, I got the impression that the Sith Lord Plagueis that Palpatine was talking about was Sideous' own master, and that Sideous was the apprentice who killed him in his sleep. Is there anything in the EU to confirm or deny this?

I believe the ROTS novelization confirms it.

I may very well be mis-remembering, but I thought he said that Plagueis' apprentice learned his secrets, then killed him in his sleep, and then passed on his teachings to his apprentice. That would indicate that it wasn't Plagueis who instructed Sidious, since Sidious probably didn't pass on his knowledge to Maul and Dooku.

I thought Plagueis tought his apprentice his secrets and in return his apprentice killed him.

I think the Visual Dictionary says that Palpy did kill his master.

Admiral Drason wrote:I think the Visual Dictionary says that Palpy did kill his master.

That's a given with Sith Lords who have attained the rank of Master as long as the rule of two is being obeyed. The apprentice must eventually slay the master to become the master once he has been given the full Sith training. A force enhanced natural life span complimented by advanced medical technology is a very long time for an apprentice eager to start making elaborate plans to acquire power, more power and get revenge on the Jedi and start training a fanatically loyal minion of his own to wait. Given that jealously, anger and other related emotions are exploited by the Sith to enhance their power, its probably safe to say that few Sith Masters die a natural death. So being guilty of mastercide is not really damning evidence.

I thought Sidious might be referring to an actual old "Sith legend" when I saw the movie, but there was something fishy about the way he told it. If anything, Palpatine's tone of voice suggested he was putting his usual spin on things when he was describing the whole Darth Plagueis story.

Recall that at the time he had not yet revealed to Anakin that he was the Sith Lord. That's the simple reason why he was speaking of himself in the third person when referring to Plagueis' apprentice.

If the novelization and Visual Dictionary says so, then it is so. Nothing in the movie contradicts it. I'm sure GL intended it to be inferrable from the way Palpatine tells the story.

Plagueis taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

I interpreted that as Palpatine recalling the story how he became the Dark Lord of the Sith.

addendum:

Though I suspect Palpatine was embellishing a bit to lure Anakin to the dark side.

what I am curious about is this: was it Sidious or Plagueis that concieved Anakin? because Palpy said he learned all the secrets but then later said he would need Anakins help to find the secret to save Padme, so he obviously did not have such power.

Death from the Sea wrote:what I am curious about is this: was it Sidious or Plagueis that concieved Anakin? because Palpy said he learned all the secrets but then later said he would need Anakins help to find the secret to save Padme, so he obviously did not have such power.

If Sidious created Anakin, I don't think he would have needed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to find him on a remote backwater desert planet. I think his former master created him and Sidious killed him (without finding out where this child was) because he knew that Plagueis was planning to replace him with the child once it matured.

In the novelization, it's stated Plagueis was Sidious' master.

Darth Wong wrote:

Death from the Sea wrote:what I am curious about is this: was it Sidious or Plagueis that concieved Anakin? because Palpy said he learned all the secrets but then later said he would need Anakins help to find the secret to save Padme, so he obviously did not have such power.

If Sidious created Anakin, I don't think he would have needed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to find him on a remote backwater desert planet. I think his former master created him and Sidious killed him (without finding out where this child was) because he knew that Plagueis was planning to replace him with the child once it matured.

There's not enough time for Sidious to train Maul after Plagueis could've created Anakin.

Darth Wong wrote:If Sidious created Anakin, I don't think he would have needed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to find him on a remote backwater desert planet. I think his former master created him and Sidious killed him (without finding out where this child was) because he knew that Plagueis was planning to replace him with the child once it matured.

I think the Jedi finding Anakin was in Palpatine's plans all along. Anakin had to be carefully manipulated, given things that could be taken away, frustrated by the Jedi code that barred him from his passions, and all the while, Palpatine is goading him on about the Jedi duplicity.

And more, this was a big "fuck you" to the Jedi order. Their best and brightest was Palpatine's instrument of their downfall.

I'm of the opinion that Anakin was still immaculately conceived by the Force itself, with no Sith interference.

There's not enough time for Sidious to train Maul after Plagueis could've created Anakin.

We know Dooku has confederates who aren't quite Sith. Maybe Darth Maul was training under Sideous before he actually became a Sith Lord.

Keep in mind, we don't know how long it takes to "coax the midichlorians to make life." It could be an instantaneous thing, something that you need to start and then life beings to be generated on its own, or something that needs constant supervision until it has formed (in the case of Anakin, until the egg developed). Also, considering Shmi was "picked" it would seem to be a random thing, because I know if I was an all-powerful Sith Lord I would want the child to be as near as possible so I can protect the mother and keep someone else gaining power over the child.

Morilore wrote:

There's not enough time for Sidious to train Maul after Plagueis could've created Anakin.

We know Dooku has confederates who aren't quite Sith. Maybe Darth Maul was training under Sideous before he actually became a Sith Lord.

In "Labrynth Of Evil", Dooku muses that Darth Maul was nothing more than a minion, and not a true Sith lord.

In the RotS novelization too, Dooku comments that Darth Maul was a "fighting animal". It's important to remember though that Dooku is a racist.

The RotS:VD states however that both Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus were nothing but instruments, and that Darth Vader was the apprentice Sidious wanted all along.

If Sidious was Plaguis' apprentice, Sidious' story was incorrect in one detail. Plaguis clearly did not teach him everything. When he's 'knighting' Vader, he says that only one sith ever learnt the secret but he is confident that with Vader's help he will discover it.

If Anakin was thinking straight, he would have gotten up and demanded to know what Sidious was talking about right there.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'm of the opinion that Anakin was still immaculately conceived by the Force itself, with no Sith interference.

Ditto.

The Force made it happen, just as it let one or more individuals in the past foretell it before it happened.. thus bringing about the prophecies about The Chosen One.


Edit: Wow okay, the idea that Plagueis created Anakin, and Sidious killed him when he knew he was scheduled for replacement is interesting.
I still go for Anakin being conceived by the Force itself though.

Also, it's interesting how Anakin foresaw Padme's fate, when it was in fact his fear of her possible fate that caused him to make it happen. There's no paradox though, since premonitions from the Force are not guaranteed, as Yoda pointed out. It's interesting nevertheless.

NecronLord wrote:If Sidious was Plaguis' apprentice, Sidious' story was incorrect in one detail. Plaguis clearly did not teach him everything. When he's 'knighting' Vader, he says that only one sith ever learnt the secret but he is confident that with Vader's help he will discover it.

If Anakin was thinking straight, he would have gotten up and demanded to know what Sidious was talking about right there.

Palpy tells the lie to hook Anakin, but even when it is revealed that Palpatine doesnt know the answer, byt this point Anakin has already given in and aided in the death of Mace Windu and there was no backing out.

Edit:

I like the idea of Plagueis creating Anakin and then Sidious ursurping that plot when he came the Master. But Palpatine is above all things the ultimate schemer while Plagueis was focused on his own strength unlike the Empire Palpatine wanted.

Palpatine influencing Anakin's creation, then arranging it so that the boy grows up on a backwater worl dwhere he has to be discovered by the Jedi has its merits as opposed to him being discovered in the normal Jedi way. The attachment to his Mother helped jump start Anakin's descent towards the Dark Side, and eventually his attachment for Padme caused him to fall over the edge. If Anakin had been raised normally he would not have had those, and instead have been indoctrinated with the Jedi teachings from Day 1 and possibly become uncorruptable by Sidious. The way things turned out was almost perfect for Sidious except for the outcome of Vader and Obi Wans duel on Mustafar. (and of course the Death Star II but thats later, heh)

Darth Fanboy wrote:Palpy tells the lie to hook Anakin, but even when it is revealed that Palpatine doesnt know the answer, byt this point Anakin has already given in and aided in the death of Mace Windu and there was no backing out.

There was killing Sidious (quite possibly within Anakin's ability at this stage. By the time he's on Mustafar, he is confident of his ability to do so) available to him though.

I'm of the opinion that Anakin was still immaculately conceived by the Force itself, with no Sith interference.

Eh...that's kinda lame, though.

HemlockGrey wrote:

I'm of the opinion that Anakin was still immaculately conceived by the Force itself, with no Sith interference.

Eh...that's kinda lame, though.

Well, that boils down to opinion. I think the idea that Anakin was created by a Sith is lame, and a bit far reaching.

All we're going off is a vague reference by Palpy, that we can't even confirm to be true or not. In fact, it's very likely that he was just telling Anakin what he wanted to hear.