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Why even bother taking on an apprentice? All they do is eventually plot to take you out...

Because at some point, you will die at which point the Sith Order will become extinct. If your apprentice gets strong enough to actually kill you, then they should replace you for the good of the Sith.

Superman wrote:Why even bother taking on an apprentice? All they do is eventually plot to take you out...

Because unless you're Darth Plagueis' apprentice, you aren't going to live forever and are unlikely to achieve your dream of taking over the galaxy and demolishing the Jedi Order within your lifetime. Therefore someone needs to carry on the teachings of the Sith so that one day vengeance is achieved.

Because that way, its the apprentice who dies first (Maul, Dooku, Anakin) and lets you know that there are some bad-ass Jedi out there who are either suitable recruits or should be avoided...

Being a puppetmaster can be fun too.

1) As has been stated, they're handy to have around, as you can send them to do your dirty work while you sit around and scheme.

2) According to Sith tradition, if your apprentice can take you down, you deserve to die to make way for someone more worthy (i.e. your apprentice).

3) If you get offed for some other reason (caught by Jedi, speeder crash, whatever), you need someone to carry on the Sith legacy, or it'll all just collapse, and the Jedi will have won. And you don't want THAT, do you?

Also because the need for revenge overwhelms everything else. Look at how much Palps gambled with Mace and Anakin, given how volatile and unpredictable Anakin has always been.

What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

Because they do end up coming after you, or fragmenting and breaking away, or creating enough fireworks to draw the attention of the Jedi. The Sith lost the previous head-on struggle. They weren't going to lose the next one.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

Dooku roped in several Jedi as confederates- Sora Bulq being the most notable among them.

What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

That's exactly how my player's boss (and his boss as well) does things in the Star Wars RPG I occassionally run. KOTOR does it as well. Multiple candidates competing for the job of head apprentice keeps them all busy back stabbing each other.

On the subject of why not recruit more Jedi, it is a tricky thing. The more people who know a secret, the bigger the chance it is blown. And if the Jedi refuses, you have to kill him/her/it and then wipe out any evidence of your involvement and recruitment pitch before the Jedi spills the beans to someone else. It's risky and not to be done lightly.

Imperial Overlord wrote:That's exactly how my player's boss (and his boss as well) does things in the Star Wars RPG I occassionally run. KOTOR does it as well. Multiple candidates competing for the job of head apprentice keeps them all busy back stabbing each other.

Thing is, the approach they took didn't require numbers simply because they weren't going head to head with the Jedi until they'd thinned their numbers sufficiently for Palpatine and Anakin to clean up the leftovers. Palpatine was obviously confident in his ability to handle whoever the council sent to confront him, and after that he went on to implement Order 66.

Even Dooku's recruitment of fallen Jedi was simply thinning the herd by setting them against each other.

Sidious plan is clearly to wipe them out without recruiting a horde of force users to do it and it works fairly well. In the RPG I'm running, that won't quite cut the mustard (which justifies the existence of Sith PC bastards). Sidious's plan is to crush them with the might of the Republic they were sworn to defend. He has the opportunity to achieve that kind of political power and the need for absolute secrecy which restricts his options.

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

The 'rule of two' came about because the ealier Sith Lords always ended up fighting each other almost as much, if not moreso than thety did Jedi, Darth Bane (source of the 'darth' title) was the last sith after the sith had a civil war in the middle of a war with the jedi, the reduced their own numbers so far down the Jedi were winning, and he made up the rules.

How else would they hide so effectively?

As Setesh said, the "Rule of Two" was put forth by Darth Bane to curb any sort of Sith Civil War. The true purpose of the rule is to insure that there is only one Sith Lord at any one time. The main fighting during the Sith Civil War was multiple Sith Lords fighting each other trying to prove who's the best. Having multiple masters works for the Jedi, but not so much for the Sith. It doesn't say anything about having multiple lesser force users though. You have the one Sith Lord, the one apprentice, and then you could have multiple underlings of various degrees of force power.

On one hand, I do agree with the wisdom of the Rule of Two. On the other, were I a Sith, why would I give a damn about some old rule? I would imagine the Sith hate to have rules and restrictions placed on them, even if they are wise. I am just amazed that they held to this one for so long. Also, since the Sith are defined by qualities such as selfishness, impatience and power-hunger, I would think they'd hate the idea of having to be a link in a chain that lets someone else defeat the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. Of course, as I think more about it, what I am describing is a stereotype. It's just one I would probably end up fitting were I a Sith Lord. Palpatine's plan was clearly the correct one, partly because it worked.

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

They wouldn't even need to be Jedi. The Sith could have their own program of identifying children and raising them in their own temples. I also don't understand why they wouldn't train a bunch of fodder Sith just enough to be effective in battle, but not enough to pose a threat to the Lord.

Sean Howard wrote:

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

They wouldn't even need to be Jedi. The Sith could have their own program of identifying children and raising them in their own temples. I also don't understand why they wouldn't train a bunch of fodder Sith just enough to be effective in battle, but not enough to pose a threat to the Lord.

How do you know they don't? Sith lords can't always rely on being able to turn a Jedi; they probably have other avenues of recruitment. I seriously doubt that Maul was a former Jedi. The Sith would need acolytes in various places, low-level users, etc.

Darth Wong wrote:

Sean Howard wrote:

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

They wouldn't even need to be Jedi. The Sith could have their own program of identifying children and raising them in their own temples. I also don't understand why they wouldn't train a bunch of fodder Sith just enough to be effective in battle, but not enough to pose a threat to the Lord.

How do you know they don't? Sith lords can't always rely on being able to turn a Jedi; they probably have other avenues of recruitment. I seriously doubt that Maul was a former Jedi. The Sith would need acolytes in various places, low-level users, etc.

From EU, Maul was recruited much like a Jedi Child. Identified and taken from his family...though Palpatine made sure no trace was found of this.

I don’t know what the canon reliability on KOTOR I & II is, but in the first one, they did have an entire school for Sith. The reason it failed is because they all continued to fight each other in order to be stronger. It continued until they all died out. They would have been a powerful for if Revan had returned to bring them to order. But he left to fight the “real” Sith Lords, which will probably be in KOTOR III, if there is one being made.

Sovereign wrote:I don’t know what the canon reliability on KOTOR I & II is, but in the first one, they did have an entire school for Sith. The reason it failed is because they all continued to fight each other in order to be stronger. It continued until they all died out. They would have been a powerful for if Revan had returned to bring them to order. But he left to fight the “real” Sith Lords, which will probably be in KOTOR III, if there is one being made.

KoTOR 1-2 was also before the Rule of Darth Bane who instituted the rule of two.

Games are always going to use the rule of two-thousand. This is so there are plently of bad guys with force powers to fight.

CDiehl wrote:What I don't get is why the Sith bothered with the Rule of Two. Were I a Sith Lord, I'd take on a bunch of apprentices to use as fodder against the Jedi, offering more power in exchange for their obedience and daring. Also, I would encourage rivalries among them, to keep them plotting against each other instead of trying to supplant me.

I also don't understand why Palpatine didn't try to convert more Jedi. Surely there are other young, insecure and power-hungry Jedi out there that can be convinced to betray the order for more power.

Here's a seemingly irrelevant statement that I will use to respond to your point: Boxing is the easiest sport to rig.

Why is boxing the easiest sport to rig? Because it is a game with few variables. Rigging a team sport is hard because you have to take into account every single player (on both sides), and the motion of the ball/puck/whatever involved in these team sports adds an additional factor that you can never have control over. Boxing has two people. That's it. No extra teammates, no ball, just two people. Control one of the two, and you've rigged the match.

See the connection? Take on many apprentices, you add many variables. You have more variables, it is harder for you to control the game.

Suppose none of your apprentices on their own are powerful enough to defeat you? They gang up on you, take you down, and as a consequence inhibit the Sith because, as stated in the premise, you are the most powerful among them.

Well KOTOR1&2 use a form of the "rule of the two" as there's only one apprentice per master (but there's several Sith Lords(aka masters)). As it's said the main reason why Darth Bane's Order did fall was that the Sith fought among themselves and caused too much havoc to hide form the Jedi.