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After watching ROTS and tying the entire 6 movies, it occured to me:
Maybe Palpatine was correct after all, the Sith may not be as evil as you think.

Just think about it, what makes the Galactic Empire and the Sith SO evil compared to the Old Republic and the Jedi? The Old Republic was equally corrupted - it turned a blind eye to the sufferings of the people in the Outer Rim, and couldnt care less if the sovereignty of their members world were attacked.
The Sith are the mortal enemies of the Jedi, so it is natural for them to fight the Jedi at every turn.

Plus, the only reason why we see the Sith/Galactic Empire as evil is because Lucas portrayed them in such a light.

Think about it. Had there been no Rebel Alliance would the Galactic Empire be truly evil then? They wouldnt have blown up planets with the Death Star as there was no disession amongst the subjects, so no need for "demonstration". They wouldnt need to occupy worlds and leave garrisons everywhere if the local systems did not rebel against them.

"I only hit you because I love you!"

Don't do this kind of shit, you sound like those fucking Decepticon apologists, who either make up shit or don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Rommie2006 wrote:Just think about it, what makes the Galactic Empire and the Sith SO evil compared to the Old Republic and the Jedi?

The Empire destroys planets, enslaves populations, and are arseholes. The OR does neither.

The Sith kill people and have no problem with that. The Jedi kill people, but do so out of defence.

The GE and Sith are evil. They may look good, but so what?

The Old Republic was equally corrupted

Only because a Sithlord was in charge of it and pulling the strings. And even then, the only crime I can think of that the Republic was guilty of was neglect and apathy, and those aren't 'crimes'. They may have led to suffering, but not to the extent a death star or two and a fleet of Star Destroyers caused.

Stofsk wrote:

Rommie2006 wrote:Just think about it, what makes the Galactic Empire and the Sith SO evil compared to the Old Republic and the Jedi?

The Empire destroys planets, enslaves populations, and are arseholes. The OR does neither.

The Sith kill people and have no problem with that. The Jedi kill people, but do so out of defence.

The GE and Sith are evil. They may look good, but so what?

The Empire destroyed a planet to make a point to stop the Rebellion. If there had been no rebellion, no dead planets. You can said that the Sith/Empire killed people to end the rebellion and bring order to the galaxy (quote Vader).

The Old Republic was equally corrupted

Only because a Sithlord was in charge of it and pulling the strings. And even then, the only crime I can think of that the Republic was guilty of was neglect and apathy, and those aren't 'crimes'. They may have led to suffering, but not to the extent a death star or two and a fleet of Star Destroyers caused.

No. I was referring to the time before Palpatine became Chancellor.
The Old Republic couldnt care less when Naboo was invaded. They also turned a blind eye to all those atrocities that were committed in the Outer Rim, e.g. slavery in Tatooine (I'm sure there were more).


Anyway, I think you guys are probably right. But what if there was no Rebel Alliance, would the GE/Sith kill/destroy indiscrimantely?
Remember Palps said that "finally the Sith will rule the galaxy once more". Their acts of destruction/evil all along were only committed against the Jedi, or committed to sort of "get back" at the Jedi. Is pursuing an age-old Vendetta with your enemy that wrong?

For the persuit of eternal domination and subjugation of the Universe: yes.

Besides, the Sith fucking started everything in the God damn first place. The Dark Side of the Force is all about personal gain and conquest.

Rommie2006 wrote:The Empire destroyed a planet to make a point to stop the Rebellion. If there had been no rebellion, no dead planets.

That's nice, but it makes no sense.

You can said that the Sith/Empire killed people to end the rebellion and bring order to the galaxy (quote Vader).

And an abusive rapist could have said "She was askin' for it" and it wouldn't make it right either.

And you ignored the point about the Sith.

No. I was referring to the time before Palpatine became Chancellor. The Old Republic couldnt care less when Naboo was invaded.

Which Palpatine fucking orchestrated, you dullard. It wasn't the Republic not caring - it was Palpatine pulling the wool over their eyes from Day One.

They also turned a blind eye to all those atrocities that were committed in the Outer Rim, e.g. slavery in Tatooine (I'm sure there were more).

And Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. What do you do in such a case? Squat-didly.

Anyway, I think you guys are probably right. But what if there was no Rebel Alliance, would the GE/Sith kill/destroy indiscrimantely?
Remember Palps said that "finally the Sith will rule the galaxy once more". Their acts of destruction/evil all along were only committed against the Jedi, or committed to sort of "get back" at the Jedi. Is pursuing an age-old Vendetta with your enemy that wrong?

Yes. Do you really have to ask that question?

The Jedi were not saints - at least, people like Mace struck me as arseholes - but no-one deserves to be murdered just because they're arrogant. The Sith orchestrated and planned the execution of a war that killed billions of people and touched thousands of worlds. The Jedi were hoodwinked, but otherwise what crimes did they do? Did they murder? Enslave? Torture? The Sith did and caused all three.

Stofsk wrote:That's nice, but it makes no sense.

Actually, it does. If Aldie wasn't a primary signatory to the Rebel Alliance (which every once in about ten years they'd remember is the "Alliance to Restore the Republic"), and was leaking funds to the Rebels, sending its own Senator to steal top secret plans (and caught red-handed at it) ... maybe it won't have been blown up.

And an abusive rapist could have said "She was askin' for it" and it wouldn't make it right either.

Incorrect analogy. Think more of a criminal running away or fighting back.

Which Palpatine fucking orchestrated, you dullard. It wasn't the Republic not caring - it was Palpatine pulling the wool over their eyes from Day One.

Even before Palpatine, there was corruption, at least according to the ISB's investigation. The Old Republic had major problems that Palpy merely took advantage of.
It is like Zsinj and his Chubar Project meant to reignite the species barriers within the New Republic. Sure, he instigated it, but if the Republic didn't have major problems, neither would have worked.

And Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. What do you do in such a case? Squat-didly.

One would have thought they could have done something.

The Jedi were not saints - at least, people like Mace struck me as arseholes - but no-one deserves to be murdered just because they're arrogant. The Sith orchestrated and planned the execution of a war that killed billions of people and touched thousands of worlds. The Jedi were hoodwinked, but otherwise what crimes did they do? Did they murder? Enslave? Torture? The Sith did and caused all three.

As far as the Sith were concerned, the Jedi were hunting them down. That makes them enemies, and legitimate targets for destruction. That being said, I will have to disagree with the Means of starting a Clone Wars, because it is not Proportionate to the Ends involved.

Rommie2006 wrote:The Empire destroyed a planet to make a point to stop the Rebellion. If there had been no rebellion, no dead planets. You can said that the Sith/Empire killed people to end the rebellion and bring order to the galaxy (quote Vader).

Personally, I think Aldie was justifiable (as so far WMD usage can be justified), meeting more requirements than even Hiroshima. But it is still hard to justify some of the other things they did.

Like the re-rating of Wookiees and a few other species into the grade of "sub-sentience". (And yes, Rogue 9 and all my other enemies, despite what you might imagine, I don't think highly of the Empire's speciesm).

Even in some of the "point" stuff, one could argue they were overblown. Such examples include Toprawa and Ralltiir.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Stofsk wrote:That's nice, but it makes no sense.

Actually, it does. If Aldie wasn't a primary signatory to the Rebel Alliance (which every once in about ten years they'd remember is the "Alliance to Restore the Republic"), and was leaking funds to the Rebels, sending its own Senator to steal top secret plans (and caught red-handed at it) ... maybe it won't have been blown up.

Alderaan wasn't the only planet destroyed.

You'll notice that I didn't say "The Empire destroyed a planet" but "planets" - plural. And I didn't mention goddamn Alderaan. Let's not turn this into another repeat of the "Alderaan was justified!" debate, because it's been done to death. THe Empire's crimes are not restricted to DSing Alderaan. Others who are more familiar with the EU can elaborate if they wish to.

Rommie was the one who mentioned Alderaan.

Even before Palpatine, there was corruption, at least according to the ISB's investigation. The Old Republic had major problems that Palpy merely took advantage of.

And enhanced, and exacerbated, and otherwise made worse. He didn't 'merely' do anything; yes the corruption was there, but he not only took advantage of it but jumped in and increased said corruption. Hell he instigated a war under false pretenses. You can't get more corrupt than that.

And Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. What do you do in such a case? Squat-didly.

One would have thought they could have done something.

Such as...?

Violence? Peaceful dialogue? Something in between?

As far as the Sith were concerned, the Jedi were hunting them down. That makes them enemies, and legitimate targets for destruction.

Oh give it a rest - the Sith were for all intents and purposes invisible to the Jedi. They didn't have an inkling that they had returned, until Maul showed up on Tattooine and tried to kill a Jedi. Who the fuck is hunting whom?

That being said, I will have to disagree with the Means of starting a Clone Wars, because it is not Proportionate to the Ends involved.

Uh, yeah.

Stofsk wrote:You'll notice that I didn't say "The Empire destroyed a planet" but "planets" - plural. And I didn't mention goddamn Alderaan. Let's not turn this into another repeat of the "Alderaan was justified!" debate, because it's been done to death. THe Empire's crimes are not restricted to DSing Alderaan. Others who are more familiar with the EU can elaborate if they wish to.

OK, never mind. Missed that just like Rommie.

And enhanced, and exacerbated, and otherwise made worse.

I didn't say he didn't shake the pillars. I said the pillars were weak, and that's why he could shake them at all.

Violence? Peaceful dialogue? Something in between?

Something in between. Like moves to bring it under the sphere of influence. It isn't supposed to be that far from Naboo after all.

Oh give it a rest - the Sith were for all intents and purposes invisible to the Jedi. They didn't have an inkling that they had returned, until Maul showed up on Tattooine and tried to kill a Jedi. Who the fuck is hunting whom?

And why do the Sith have to hide? Because if they stick their heads out the Jedi would get them.

And whose fault is that? The Jedi?

No, it's the Sith's damn fault in the first place. As I said above, the Sith's goals are focused around conquest and personal gain.

The fact that the Sith are evil can't be changed with your damn apologetics.

If the PT shows us anything it's how Palpy orchestrated conflicts involving the deaths and suffering of many merely to 'legitamise' his power grab.

That's evil.

Anyways it says so in the opening credits for ANH

It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a

hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic

Empire.

There you are in yellow and black

dworkin wrote:

ANH wrote: It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

There you are in yellow and black

Not a good argument. Appeal to authority. What standards did he use for evil?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:And whose fault is that? The Jedi?

As far as the Sith are concerned, yes. I'd agree that it was better that they don't exist, but the Sith obviously won't see their existence that way, so that's an unfair standard to hold them to. It is fairer to point out that even if they were in the Right about the Jedi oppressing them, a War involving Billions is a poor solution.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Not a good argument. Appeal to authority. What standards did he use for evil?

Here's a dollar $. You know what to do with it.

Now answer my first point.

Personally, I think that the Dark Side is not necessarily evil, but Palpatine certainly was. He started a war which killed untold numbers of people as a ruse to get himself into power; that is morally indefensible no matter how many contortions you use.

Reading this one TF.N...I'd thought we might avoid this garbage.

Wong is right in the regard the Dark Side is not evil, it's components are mainly very strong implusive choices. What you do with them are what they become.

But to go "The Emperor is not evil"

He commits an action willfully and conspired with an enemy which resulted hundreds of his own countrymen in camps and killed so he can get elected Chancellor. Propose and ordering the slaughter of his own countrymen to insure this.

He conspired with the enemy to create a war that results in the slaughter of untold trillions to establish a dictatorship to which he is the sole ruler.


And this before he crowns him Emperor. I mean for fuck's sake, this is like people going "Megatron wasn't evil...he was a patriot!!" I do love though the thoughts of "Well, compare them to the Jedi!!!!!"

Yes, and....that's just wonderful little wanking strawman unless you can provide some evidence for it.

So far all I've seen is "We can justify Alderaan as a military target." Cool...now tell me how the justification for the Clone wars goes?

This I have to see the bullshit of.

dworkin wrote:Now answer my first point.

Can't you tell I'm not seriously trying to say the Emperor is a good guy?

Well the whole point of the Dark Side is to find personal power and conquer, which is tied as one into the Sith dogma. The Sith are the Dark Side and vice versa, and both are, in many important ways, evil. I cant recal anyone who was a Dark sider and not greedy, power hungry and generally sociopathic.

Now as for the Sith...

The Sith, represented by Palpatine, set up the Seperatists and every life lost by them is thus on his hands. IIRC, several planets and trillions of people were BDZed by the Seperatists durring the war.

By their own admission (later movies, EU) the Sith's whole dogma is basically that of the Dark Side--being to find and gather as much power as possible, with no concern for who gets hurt. Seperatists, Clones, civilians and Jedi all died in the war, i'd imagine trillions cause planets were BDZed and destroyed. And afterwards, Palpatine's dictatorship enslaved races like the Wookiee among others. ALL of this was the Sith, for there was only one true Sith left and that was Palpatine and all of this was his doing, either directly or by proxy.

The EU, especially KOTOR which tells of the early Sith Wars, are literally filled with page after page after page with nothing but one thing explained very clearly in a myriad of ways: the Sith are evil, want to conquer and dominate, and are generally murderous ass holes.

Now personally i think people are knocking teh Jedi and Republic too hard. It's not perfect, but you cant honestly contend that the Jedi and Republic are somehow equal in coupability to the Sith Lord who started thsi whole war.

Am I the only one amused whenever he sees americans(presumably?), who generally recoil at the very thought of any affront to thier personal or political freedoms try to defend a obviously despotic *Empire*?

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

dworkin wrote:Now answer my first point.

Can't you tell I'm not seriously trying to say the Emperor is a good guy?

Then please just shut up. I get so sick of stupid fucks and their devil's advocating...

So let me get this straight. The Rebellion made the Empire evil. Had nobody rebelled against Palpatine, he would have been a sweet, loving grandpa to his Empire. The Empire that was built on hatred, revenge and deception was just misunderstood in its quest for order. After all, who wouldn't love to live in a society where quadrillions of people are considered to exist solely to aggrandize one man? Ha!

If turning a republic, even a faltering one, into an Empire through a campaign of manipulation and lies is not evil, what is? If espousing a philosophy of hatred, fear and cruelty, and ruling said empire by it, is not evil, what is? if instigating war and putting countless lives in jeopardy in order to make oneself more powerful is not evil, what is? If destroying whole worlds to instill terror in your own population is not evil, what is?

Seriously, Rommie, what does it take to convince you, if consistently committing acts that no sane person could fail to recognize as unconscionable does not? Do you perhaps think they were committed for some greater good? If so, tell me what greater good they could possibly serve. Do you think they do not represent Sith philosophy? if so, what philosophy do they really have? I would like to know how Palpatine is justified in his quest for power and control, for those are what he sought and not peace or justice, and certainly not a better life for the people of the galaxy.

Kaz will be here soon if he isn't already.

Rommie2006 wrote:Plus, the only reason why we see the Sith/Galactic Empire as evil is because Lucas portrayed them in such a light.

No Shit.

He could have made Dark Lords of the Jedi fighting the Noble Knights of the Sith.

Jesus. What the hell is the point of that argument?