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OK, I watched the film and I have to ask: was Palpatine faking defeat?
Many on the forums believe that he has and I myself am a Palpatine fanboy and don't like the fact that he could lose to someone who is basically a sidekick.
In the first part of the duel Palpatine is clearly superior, he wipes out the three jedi with no effort and Mace doesn't even slow him down. This certainly leads me to believe that he was faking the defeat.
However when Mace pinns him to the ground he starts shooting ligthning and then his transformation follows. Is this caused by Mace deflecting lightning back at him? Or was it caused by Palpatines exaustion or anger?
If Palpatine is truly faking than this scene seems almost too subtle for a Star Wars film. I mean in one of the DVD commentaries Lucas said that he wanted a scene in ROTJ where Luke asks Yoda if Vader really was his father because he wasn't sure the audience got the message in ESB!
As much as I want to believe that Palpatine was only faking it does seem that Mace defeated him.
Your thoughts?

He was completely faking it!! That much should be blatanly obvious.

Palpatine (and Sith, in general) had a much greater array of abilities than the Jedis (in addition to the standard TK, precog, enhancements...), but I don't think that he was faking it when he lost his lightsaber and Windu could have killed him with ease. It was quite moronic to put himself as the bait for the Rebel Fleet in Endor, but he was sitting in a massive battlestation not fighting them himself. Chosen One as possible apprentice or not, I doubt highly that Palpatine would have been holding against rivals of roughly his level.

Perhaps the novelization details something about the combat, but I suspect that Palpatine used some Force ability to hamper the reactions of the first masters he killed in order to even the odds, but Windu managed to defeat him through superior swordmanship and only while cornered Palpatine had time to "recharge" (or to use abilities that might need concentration that cannot be achieved when fighting with lightsabers).

EDIT: BTW, Palpie's style seems to include a lot of stabbing movements just like, IIRC, Mara Jade's. Is that a EU tie-in?

Yes, he was faking it. It seems as if Palpatine had foreseen that Anakin would arrive at the office. It should also be obvious that he had been faking when he used the force lightning on Windu.

Palpatine was defeated fair and square by Windu at the point he lost his lightsabre. Where he faked it is where he's going on about how weak and old he is and pleading for his life when Mace Windu was about to kill him after the lightning attack. That was for Anakin's benefit, to get Anakin on side. Palpatine knew that Anakin would side with him.

Where he faked it is where he's going on about how weak and old he is and pleading for his life when Mace Windu was about to kill him after the lightning attack.

Oh yes, that "old and weak" is clearly faking, but what is blurry is could Palpatine defeat Mace at that point? Was he holding back with his lightning? His transformation seem to suggest that he wasn't and that Mace could kill him if not for Anakin. As much as I'd like to take a nice long swim in Egypt's biggest river that seems to be the case.

No, Palpatine was not faking getting his lighting slammed back at him, but he was faking that it had drained him.

First, we have a scene where Palpatine is talking to Anakin via the Force, much like Obi Wan to Luke in ANH. Then we have Palpatine kicking ass, and suddenly, just before Anakin walks in, he is mystically beaten, and backs away scurrying for cover. Not only that, he claims he is weak and beaten, and when Anakin makes his move on Windu, we get, 'UNLIMITED POWER!' with Windu being totally covered in lightning and then being tossed out of the window to his death. Strange, later he easily holds his own against Yoda and even causes him to be on the defensive. I don't know about Professor Profound, but it seems obvious to me he was faking it the whole time.

Cal Wright wrote:First, we have a scene where Palpatine is talking to Anakin via the Force, much like Obi Wan to Luke in ANH. Then we have Palpatine kicking ass, and suddenly, just before Anakin walks in, he is mystically beaten, and backs away scurrying for cover. Not only that, he claims he is weak and beaten, and when Anakin makes his move on Windu, we get, 'UNLIMITED POWER!' with Windu being totally covered in lightning and then being tossed out of the window to his death. Strange, later he easily holds his own against Yoda and even causes him to be on the defensive. I don't know about Professor Profound, but it seems obvious to me he was faking it the whole time.

I'm not sure he was totally faking it. After all, Mace Windu's Dark Side Attack Reflection ability seems to be tied to him keeping his lightsabre, since he absorbed and reflected Palpatine's attack with it. When Anakin chopped off his hands, he no longer had his lightsabre, so he no longer had the means to deflect Force lightning. Not to mention the shock of losing one's hands does wonders for ones ability to concentrate, and it was pretty clear Windu needed a lot of concentration to keep Palpatine's lightning at bay.

Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

Gotta watch it again soon, because there are several things here that are IIRC:

Mace's style is direct, brutal, and powerful. You can't possibly deny that Palpatine was at his mercy... unless you consider the level of power Palpatine shows for the rest of the movie. His force lightning after Windu is ..disarmed hurls Mace dozens or hundreds of yards out the window almost immediately. Saying that Palpatine could have multitasked long enough to a)keep Windu off balance with a half "UNLIMITED POWER!!" level attack and b)snatch a convenient Large Blunt Object to swat Windu out the window seems entirely reasonable to me, especially considering that he seemed joyful (in a wrathful Sith way, of course) while he was fighting Yoda with multiple senate-pods floating around at a time.

And consider: if Anakin had walked in to find Palpatine standing over the dismembered bodies of 1/3 the Jedi Counsel, his reaction would probably have been a vastly less sympathetic than it was when he saw Mace screaming bloody murder at an apparently helpless and maimed old man who was begging for mercy. If Palpatine had already killed Mace, Anakin probably would have fled and not come back without Yoda and Kenobi, and if Anakin had walked in on the Sith Lord Darth Sideous battling Mace he would certainly have jumped in on Mace's side to bring the obviously guilty man to justice.

This may remain a point for debate unless it is directly addressed in a DVD commentary, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Sideous designed the encounter to proceed just as we saw.

Robert Walper wrote:Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

Give that man a priza Johnny!

Seriously, some people are giving Palpatine WAY too much credit. IMHO, he was fairly beaten by Windu and, had their not been a fall, would have eventually been beaten by Yoda too, yea, I said...

The Man was evil, he was a master of deception, of trickery, of playing the entier Galaxy against itself. But to say he 'planned' to have his face melted by his own Sith Lightning for the sake of turning Anakin, come on now.

Robert Walper wrote:Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

The disfiguring gave him a lot of leverage towards turning the Republic into the Empire in the Senate. The outrage caused by the Jedi doing that to him allowed him to kill them all off, and allowed him to impose a dictatorship.

Robert Walper wrote:Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

On the holograms and such in the other prequels, wasn't he already pretty fucked? I get the feeling that he was more just revealing his true face and making it look like it was Windu's doing, or was otherwise not putting the effort into looking normal. Whether it was a conscious decision to look more pitiful to Anakin or not, or perhaps just an acceptable loss (what I personally suspect) remains open for debate.

Personally, I think Windu was not a match for Palpatine, but did do some severe damage, like he was just a level below on WoW or something. A serious threat, but likely to lose overall. Palpy turned the situation into a means of gaining allegience from Anakin while saving up dark side mana for a finishing move on Windu.

I saw it as the other way around when he was fighting Yoda, like if Yoda had said "Around, turn this ship, fuck up the Sith Lord I will," instead of "go into exile I must," he could've finished Palpatine off.

Rye wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

On the holograms and such in the other prequels, wasn't he already pretty fucked?

Not in the movies ... the Clone Wars cartoons are ... under consideration at the moment.

Robert Walper wrote:Palpatine was willing to horribly disfigure himself just to get Anakin to turn? I find this a little hard to believe.

Palpatine's disfigurement was certainly not a disadvantage at any point in the movie; his face was well known before the "assasination attempt" and afterward it lent weight to his claims, and scored Yushcenko style sympathy points.

I'll admit that it's not impossible that Palpatine had painted himself into a corner (that is, threw the fight, but threw it harder than he expected), but it seems unlikely. Even if he couldn't get through with force lightn--BAM!! Massive senatorial desk to the face!

And honestly, tell me: how could he even have HOPED to turn Anakin to the Dark Side if he had not "lost" the fight?

In the novelization, it doesnt really seem like Palpatine gives a damn about his face. After the battle, he looks into a mirror and says something along the lines of "A shame, the face of Palpatine is gone. I rather enjoyed it." Obviously, to a man who has been orchestrating his rise to power for decades, losing his face (which is probably mostly illusion anyways) in order to gain sympathy from both Anakin and the Senate would be a good trade off.

It seems like taking an incredible and stupid risk. There was always the possibility that Mace would just thrust forward with that saber and burn a hole in his brain. The fact that Windu was too hesitant to do so certainly saved Palpatine's life.

However

This is the man who uses himself as bait in a trap. Such a harebrained scheme certainly seems in-character for Sidious.

Conclusion

It could be either. I would suggest going with whatever the novellisation says.

As I have pointed out, Palpy's disfigurement looks a bit too regular to be a result of having his Lightning directed back at him, so I'm going for the idea that it's his 'true' face. Note that the 'disfigurement' involves him getting the Sith eyes, which is a bit too much of a coincedence.

Personally, I think Palpatine was just a little too arrogant, and Mace Windu took advantage of that.

I don't see how Palpatine's disfigurement could be argued as an intentional method of generating "sympathy" for himself from the senate. I mean come on, he controlled the senate already.

I think just some people are pissed Palpatine isn't as uber wanked as some want him to be. I don't see anything wrong with Mace having forced Palpatine into an unfavorable position. He ain't invincible, and I was never under the impression Yoda was magnitudes beyond Mace in skill, Force or lightsaber wise.

Notice there's no actual burning of his flesh. It just seems like a big marhsmellow face. And we've never seen anyone else show similar burn effects from Force lighting - Luke got toasted long and hard and he was just fine, same with Dad, same with Mace Windu (who got toasted so bad we saw his skeleton much like what happened with Vader), so I have to reluctantly agree that what we saw was a reason to drop the facade finally and get down to business.

NecronLord wrote:It seems like taking an incredible and stupid risk. There was always the possibility that Mace would just thrust forward with that saber and burn a hole in his brain. The fact that Windu was too hesitant to do so certainly saved Palpatine's life.

I feel that Sideous' precog was working well enough that he could tell, at the least, "Windu's mind tells me that a second from now I will be alive; I can continue my ruse."

I think he kept going just as long as he needed. Battle from Mace's perspective in five phases:

1: OMFG, this guy is for real, so gotta go at this for real. (ready to kill immediately)
2: Swordfighting around the room evenly, occasionally taunting, looking for any advantage. (still ready to kill immediately)
3: Palpatine disarmed and desperate, shooting force lightning that I push back in his face (the advantage is mine, don't push, kill when he tires)
4: Anakin needs to understand the situation: we can't arrest Sideous, he's too dangerous to let out of our sight, to dangerous for public trial... (no longer ready to kill Sideous immediately, and this is the only time he is given the chance)
5: Anakin can't be convinced, kill him anyway--well shit, my arm's gone.

From Palpatine's:
1: Kill adds first. Hahaha, what fun!!
2: Hold Mace until just before Anakin arrives, but don't use any of the Sith "instant win buttons." Hiss, if only you knew I was toying with you...
3: Anakin is almost there... hey, this kind of hurts. It's all worth it though...
4: Time to use the Dark Powers of Ian McDiarmid: I'm helpless! Powerless! You gotta keep the black man down, Ani!
5: ...UNLIMITED POWER!!!!1

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to force the thread off track, but I still don't see any better way than this for Sideous to turn Anakin.

Sriad wrote:I feel that Sideous' precog was working well enough that he could tell, at the least, "Windu's mind tells me that a second from now I will be alive; I can continue my ruse."

Yeah. The thing is, the precog isn't perfect. This overconfidence, is after all, what got him killed. There was always the risk that the precog was wrong and that Mace would push the saber through his head and not switch it off until the entire office smelt of boiled sith brain.

I don't think Palpatine faked losing his saber, nor having the lightning come back at him. But his weakling act was definitely faked. I also don't think he was using his full force at Mace either, he was probably stalling for time (maybe he sensed Anakin's presence). Because after Mace's saber is deflected by Anakin, it seems Palpatine becomes even MORE powerful when he unleashes the attack that kills Mace.

Robert Walper wrote:Personally, I think Palpatine was just a little too arrogant, and Mace Windu took advantage of that.

Again, I believe this is possible but unlikely.

I don't see how Palpatine's disfigurement could be argued as an intentional method of generating "sympathy" for himself from the senate. I mean come on, he controlled the senate already.

He did, but there was some opposition, and declaring yourself Emperor does cost quite a lot of political capital.

I think just some people are pissed Palpatine isn't as uber wanked as some want him to be. I don't see anything wrong with Mace having forced Palpatine into an unfavorable position. He ain't invincible, and I was never under the impression Yoda was magnitudes beyond Mace in skill, Force or lightsaber wise.

Right after the Palp-Windu fight I thought Palp had been honestly beaten, and it wasn't until after the Palp-Yoda fight that I felt different. We KNOW Yoda didn't throw the fight, and every time the two clashed head own Palpatine came out ahead by a little: after the initial exchange of blows Yoda was constantly in retreat, and by the end of the fight (more force lightning than he could catch, hurt them both, yes but:) Yoda fell a paltry ten meters and landed right on his face, disarmed (in the weapon-only sense) with Sideous still far up in the high ground.

I think that for Palpatine to have been beaten so soundly in his room Mace would have needed to be vastly superior to Yoda.

And with that I have to leave for a while, maybe watch a movie.