Luke and his realistic chances

[Stravo]

Yoda and Obi Wan were going to craft Luke as their weapon against Vader and his emperor. Yoda knew exactly what to expect against the Emperor. Obi Wan knew what sort of fight was ahead against Vader. Did they really truly think that Luke stood a chance against any of them let alone both?

Did Obi Wan suspect that there was good in Vader and perhaps that was Luke's only real ace in the hole that he might get Vader to turn?

One frighteningly glaring eample of the unrealistic expectation can be found in Yoda's training regimine where he seemingly overlooked the use of Sith lightning. A rather glaring ommmission unless he was getting Alzheimer's and forgot about his fights with Dooku and Palpy. He did not teach Luke ANYTHING about Force ligthning, most importantly of all how to defend against it.

In the movie Luke is genuinely surprised by the assault and writhes and screams on the floor. In the novelization Luke surmises that the attack is force generated and may be force repelled so he actually does manage to repel some of the attack showing just how freakishly powerful Luke is when he can exert some abilities relgated to true masters like Yoda as seen in the prequels - but still is ignorant that the ability even existed. With such a flaw in his training he is woefully unprepared for what his purpose was - defeating a Sith lord and his master.

So in the end just what did they hope to accomplish with Luke? If indeed they suspected Luke would somehow tap into Vader's good side they had a funny way of showing it. They emphasized Vader's evil and the fact that he MUST be destroyed. Yoda said there was no turning back further reinforced by his statements in ROTS when he gives Obi Wan the same shtick he gave Luke. You HAVE to kill Anakin he has been consumed by Darth Vader.

Was it a last ditch effort? Was it the last gasp from the Jedi Order as Yoda knew his time was numbered and Obi Wan was gone? Was it a calculated risk to see if Luke MIGHT get Vader to turn back? Did they ever really think Luke had a realistic chance which I posit that after Palpy's performance in ROTS is laughably unrealistic.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think they were expecting Luke to confront Palpatine immediately; more a gradual process of defeating Vader, training Leia and maybe some others, and eventually overpowering the Emperor and the Empire through the war and with a cadre of new Jedi. Luke went and fucked it up going immediately to Endor to confront Vader; he had no intention of being forced to meet the Galactic Emperor.

And in reference to Sith lightning, in the novelisation Luke begins deflecting it by hand with the Force but Palpatine eventually overpowers him and keeps on shocking him.

[Crown]

To be fair Stravo, Luke did cut his training short by fleeing to Bespin in TESB, by the time he came back in RotJ Yoda was trying his hardest to just stay alive.

There is no question in my mind that if Luke (or Leia) had completed his training under Yoda in TESB Palps would have shit himself in RotJ.

[Cal Wright]

They probably didn't think he'd toss his damn lightsabre away either. Other then that, yeah, I think they both believed that Luke could handle the both of them. They also didn't think that he would be in the audience of the Emperor while fighting Vader. So it's sort of a double situation.

[Darth Wong]

Yoda told Luke to go confront Vader, not Palpatine. I'm sure that if Luke asked about simultaneously confronting both Vader and Palpatine together, Yoda would have said "On crack you are. Fucked up you will be."

[Stravo]

That does bring up an interesting question of how much time fell between ESB and ROTJ? I think it was something betwene 6 months to a year. I can see where Luke would be far more powerful if he spent another full year on Dagobah but just what was he doing for a whole year that he couldn't head back to Dagobah and train as soon as he was healed back up from his duel. Hell, just to get an answer about Vader's revelation should have had him on the first X-Wing to Dagobah after the closing montage of ESB.

Point well taken on Luke's own recklessness in ROTJ and ESB. Kind of makes Yoda's desperation for having him stay make more sense. Perhaps the next step in the training regimine was Sith Lightning - the Do's and Don'ts.

Also what does this say abnout Luke that a year of training equalled his father's 10 years (or more?) of training. I was under the assumption that Luke would be a watered down version of Anakin because of the dilution of the blood line with his nonForce sensitive mother's blood line but does it work that way? Can the Chosen One's son be more powerful than the Chosen one?

[Alex Moon]

In many ways, Luke's teaching is a reflection of the Jedi failure with Anakin. Anakin was taught how to use the force, but never the discipline to resist the Dark Side. As a result, you have a very powerful figure who could be easily controlled. With Luke, Obi-wan and Yoda saw a way to drive a wedge between Vader and Palpatine. They knew that Vader would one day try to overthrow the emperor and take Luke as his apprentice. Thus, they had to teach Luke to resist the dark side when that showdown came. Ultimately, it would be Vader who destroyed the Emperor, not Luke. Evil destroying Evil and all that. All Luke could do was be the catalyst, and then try and survive to pick up the pieces.

So in the end just what did they hope to accomplish with Luke? If indeed they suspected Luke would somehow tap into Vader's good side they had a funny way of showing it. They emphasized Vader's evil and the fact that he MUST be destroyed. Yoda said there was no turning back further reinforced by his statements in ROTS when he gives Obi Wan the same shtick he gave Luke. You HAVE to kill Anakin he has been consumed by Darth Vader.

Remember that Vader and Anakin are two seperate entities in the eyes of the Jedi. "A certain point of view" anyone? Destroying Vader and redeeming Anakin are not mutually exclusive. Especially if you take it to a much more symbolic level. As I said above, Anakin was essentially everything that was wrong with the Jedi by the time of the PT. They were an institution that was arrogant and isolated from the outside world. This hubris left their members vulnerable to the Dark Side, and Anakin is the perfect example of this. He was trained to do a bunch of tricks with the Force, but was never given the discipline and knowledge to keep to the side of Light. Luke's confrontation with Vader is then a confrontation with the dangers of the Jedi path. He has to prove that he can resist temptation before he is truly a Jedi. Hence, he is destroying the Vader in himself more than anything else.

[Cal Wright]

Well, we have two ways of looking at that. This is where evidence from the movies flies all up in some people's faces. Constantly you hear how this blood line Force passing on is stupid and incorrect. However our first and only knowledge of any of this is in the movies about a son and daughter who are in a blood line in which the Force flows strongly in the family. So now we know that the Force can be passed on by the family lines.

Now, do we know that Luke is or can be more powerful then Vader, hell the Emperor himself. Yes. In RotJ, during Obi Wans revelation, he's laying it all out on the table. No more lies, no more bullshit. Do we take into account the 'more machine now then man' quote. Possibly, but it has no bearing. Obi Wan tells Luke that he has a sister, and no one knows about her because of thier abilities. Any offspring of Anakin would be a threat to the Emperor himself. The Emperor was confident during the throne room scene that Vader was completely turned to the dark side, so there's no questioning there. This would have the power Luke and Leia inherited as enough or more then enough to take on the Emperor himself and conquor him.

[Admiral Drason]

Luke was dealing with Black Sun during the time in between the two films. The book Shadows of the Empire deals with those events.

[Darth Wong]

Luke may be more powerful than what's left of Vader. I don't think there is any reason to suspect that he is more powerful than Anakin at the height of his power.

As for not training him early, there is no indication at the end of ROTS that they had any kind of plan. "Into exile I must go" Yoda said; it may be that they tried to hide the children from Vader simply because they felt it was the right thing to do, not because they had some kind of master plan or they felt that baby Luke could someday destroy the Empire.

[Mark S]

I see a couple of things here.

With Luke's training,a nd Jedi training in general, perhaps it doesn't take that long to learn to use the Force and get the main tricks down. Maybe you really only need the 'crash course'. The reason for every Jedi taking decades to be knighted maybe is because they have to be adults first, of course, to handle the situations, and the masters have to make sure they are completely brainwashed (if you want to use that word) into the mindset of a traditional Jedi. It could be that learn the control is what takes so long, not the tricks. That's why Anakin was held back, because has wasn't mentally ready. They as much as state it.

The other thing is, perhaps they didn't really care how far along Luke had gotten. It doesn't matter if he can beat the emperor because he was never going to. They knew that wasn't his destiny. The Sith's destiny was to be brought down by the Son of Suns, the Chosen One, right? That was Vader. Luke was just the catalyse. And if he couldn't draw Anakin back out, Leia would. One of them had to. It was destiny.

[Perinquus]

I see a couple of things here.

With Luke's training,a nd Jedi training in general, perhaps it doesn't take that long to learn to use the Force and get the main tricks down. Maybe you really only need the 'crash course'. The reason for every Jedi taking decades to be knighted maybe is because they have to be adults first, of course, to handle the situations, and the masters have to make sure they are completely brainwashed (if you want to use that word) into the mindset of a traditional Jedi. It could be that learn the control is what takes so long, not the tricks. That's why Anakin was held back, because has wasn't mentally ready. They as much as state it.

The other thing is, perhaps they didn't really care how far along Luke had gotten. It doesn't matter if he can beat the emperor because he was never going to. They knew that wasn't his destiny. The Sith's destiny was to be brought down by the Son of Suns, the Chosen One, right? That was Vader. Luke was just the catalyse. And if he couldn't draw Anakin back out, Leia would. One of them had to. It was destiny.

I disagree completely. There is no evidence whatever that either Yoda or Obi Wan thought any such thing. Yoda, for his part, had always been skeptical of the prophecy about the chosen one, and flatly that stated that insofar as it might hold any truth, that truth was open to more than one interpretation. Obi Wan agreed with him on this point. Moreover, you have Yoda state clearly in both trilogies that looking into the future is extremely uncertain. Based on this, I think it's clear enough that Yoda made his plans with only marginal consideration at best for whatever any prophecy might or might not say.

Add to this the fact that Obi Wan, in his conversation with Luke after Yoda's death, clearly dismisses the idea that Vader can be turned back from the Dark Side. He tells Luke: "I once thought as you did". "Once thought" -- past tense. He no longer thinks so. He goes on to say: "He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil." He very clearly has no confidence whatsoever that Anakin Skywalker can be reclaimed from Darth Vader. There's just no evidence whatever that either Yoda or Obi Wan were planning on that. None at all.

[NecronLord]

One frighteningly glaring eample of the unrealistic expectation can be found in Yoda's training regimine where he seemingly overlooked the use of Sith lightning. A rather glaring ommmission unless he was getting Alzheimer's and forgot about his fights with Dooku and Palpy. He did not teach Luke ANYTHING about Force ligthning, most importantly of all how to defend against it.

"If for advanced training you had stayed, shown you I would. Toasted your short-eared arse on a daily basis I would have."

I expect Yoda's plan was to impart as much of his combat and physical knowledge to Luke as possible before dying, and leave all the philosophy out. Which is, incidentally, what the "will of the force" seemed to be after, in creating a new Jedi Order without the bullshit about attachment leading to the darkside and baby stealing.

[Perinquus]

One frighteningly glaring eample of the unrealistic expectation can be found in Yoda's training regimine where he seemingly overlooked the use of Sith lightning. A rather glaring ommmission unless he was getting Alzheimer's and forgot about his fights with Dooku and Palpy. He did not teach Luke ANYTHING about Force ligthning, most importantly of all how to defend against it.

"If for advanced training you had stayed, shown you I would. Toasted your short-eared arse on a daily basis I would have."

I expect Yoda's plan was to impart as much of his combat and physical knowledge to Luke as possible before dying, and leave all the philosophy out. Which is, incidentally, what the "will of the force" seemed to be after, in creating a new Jedi Order without the bullshit about attachment leading to the darkside and baby stealing.

This seems likeliest to me as well. Had Luke not cut his training short, Yoda would likely have prepared him to deal with the emperor's Sith lightning. Given Luke's late start, and his own imminent death, Yoda had limited time to impart the necessary combat skills to Luke. He would just have to focus on combat skills, since that was the only way to give Luke the ability to survive an encounter with either Vader or the emperor. The more philosophical aspects of the Force, he would simply have to leave Luke to discover on his own, trusting to Luke's basically good and decent nature to guide him.

[McC]

Tying ROTS into all of this, here's what I think the whole deal was.

Vader's purpose for turning to the dark side is to save Padme from death. He then thinks he killed her, which destroys every single reason he had for going to the dark side, rendering him a shell of his former self -- a being without any true purpose, who becomes a simple tool of the emperor. This is reflected in ROTS when he says he wants to overthrow Palpatine and rule with Padme. He knows Palpatine is evil, and plans to throw him out so he and Padme can be happy. Then he goes and thinks Padme is dead. This further is reflected in his attitude shift between ANH and ESB (discussed below).

Padme tells Obi-Wan there's still good in Anakin. Obi-Wan probably senses this too, somewhere ("Obi-Wan once thought as you do"). Both Obi-Wan and Yoda know that the only person to reasonably be able to take out the Emperor is Vader himself -- no one else is strong enough.

Vader finds out that the person who blew up the Death Star was "Luke Skywalker." He suddenly feels the embers of his hopes for Padme reignite -- he has a purpose again. His family may not be all gone and his dreams for fixing the galaxy and getting rid of Palpatine may actually come to fruition. He begins doggedly searching for Skywalker. Palpatine, a little later, catches wind of this and tries to bend this turn of events to his own will, but Vader is already working against him.

Instead of training Luke to be a badass Force-wielding Jedi, Obi-wan and Yoda train him to be a highly Dark Side-resistant Jedi. Luke succeeded in resisting falling to the Dark Side on Bespin, when both Yoda and Obi-Wan thought he would fail. He didn't beat Vader, so clearly his abilities weren't nearly up to the challenge, but he did resist the fall. Vader exhibits his desire to overthrow Palpatine and bring order to the galaxy as "father and son" (rather than as husband and wife, like he proposed to Padme at the end of ROTS).

Luke eventually returns to Dagobah, but Yoda tells him he no longer needs additional training -- he succeeded where both Yoda and Obi-Wan expected him to fail. Yoda tries to warn him about the emperor ("Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor, or suffer your father's fate you will"), but doesn't have the chance to say "This guy will fry your ass."

Luke, predictably, again tries to turn Vader. Vader is conflicted once again, as he was in ROTS. His son -- his renewed purpose for living and the only tie he has to the woman he loved and for whom fell to the Dark Side -- is trying to turn him away. His son is what he wanted to be. However, he feels as though he can't change the path he's gone down. "It is...too late for me, son" can easily be read as "I wish I could do what you ask, but I'm just too far gone...I'm sorry."

So Luke confronts the emperor. And he gets owned, much as everyone knew he would. The most powerful Jedi fell before the emperor, why should Luke be any different? But Luke has reignited enough of Anakin's compassion and love that he cannot bear to watch Luke suffer, so he turns on the emperor -- the only one who could feasibly do it -- and defeats him.

So, all that having been said, Luke was not a weapon to be used against the emperor. Luke was a catalyst to reawaken the good man in Anakin and destroy the emperor.

[Knife]

One frighteningly glaring eample of the unrealistic expectation can be found in Yoda's training regimine where he seemingly overlooked the use of Sith lightning. A rather glaring ommmission unless he was getting Alzheimer's and forgot about his fights with Dooku and Palpy. He did not teach Luke ANYTHING about Force ligthning, most importantly of all how to defend against it.

"If for advanced training you had stayed, shown you I would. Toasted your short-eared arse on a daily basis I would have."

I expect Yoda's plan was to impart as much of his combat and physical knowledge to Luke as possible before dying, and leave all the philosophy out. Which is, incidentally, what the "will of the force" seemed to be after, in creating a new Jedi Order without the bullshit about attachment leading to the darkside and baby stealing.

This seems likeliest to me as well. Had Luke not cut his training short, Yoda would likely have prepared him to deal with the emperor's Sith lightning. Given Luke's late start, and his own imminent death, Yoda had limited time to impart the necessary combat skills to Luke. He would just have to focus on combat skills, since that was the only way to give Luke the ability to survive an encounter with either Vader or the emperor. The more philosophical aspects of the Force, he would simply have to leave Luke to discover on his own, trusting to Luke's basically good and decent nature to guide him.

That is my take as well. The Jedi Order was stagnate, Yoda figured it out and accepted it. Training Luke in the 'old way's' would have been a lost cause. Yoda couldn't take Palpy using the old ways.

So instead, he trained Luke so he had the tools to discover his way through the Force. He had the 'tricks of the trade' as it were but the actual path through the Force was left up to Luke to find his way through.

This way, it wasn't the same tired path the Jedi had followed for centuaries and Luke may stumble across some truths that no Jedi had come across before.

[Perinquus]

Tying ROTS into all of this, here's what I think the whole deal was.

Vader's purpose for turning to the dark side is to save Padme from death. He then thinks he killed her, which destroys every single reason he had for going to the dark side, rendering him a shell of his former self -- a being without any true purpose, who becomes a simple tool of the emperor. This is reflected in ROTS when he says he wants to overthrow Palpatine and rule with Padme. He knows Palpatine is evil, and plans to throw him out so he and Padme can be happy. Then he goes and thinks Padme is dead. This further is reflected in his attitude shift between ANH and ESB (discussed below).

Padme tells Obi-Wan there's still good in Anakin. Obi-Wan probably senses this too, somewhere ("Obi-Wan once thought as you do"). Both Obi-Wan and Yoda know that the only person to reasonably be able to take out the Emperor is Vader himself -- no one else is strong enough.

Vader finds out that the person who blew up the Death Star was "Luke Skywalker." He suddenly feels the embers of his hopes for Padme reignite -- he has a purpose again. His family may not be all gone and his dreams for fixing the galaxy and getting rid of Palpatine may actually come to fruition. He begins doggedly searching for Skywalker. Palpatine, a little later, catches wind of this and tries to bend this turn of events to his own will, but Vader is already working against him.

Instead of training Luke to be a badass Force-wielding Jedi, Obi-wan and Yoda train him to be a highly Dark Side-resistant Jedi. Luke succeeded in resisting falling to the Dark Side on Bespin, when both Yoda and Obi-Wan thought he would fail. He didn't beat Vader, so clearly his abilities weren't nearly up to the challenge, but he did resist the fall. Vader exhibits his desire to overthrow Palpatine and bring order to the galaxy as "father and son" (rather than as husband and wife, like he proposed to Padme at the end of ROTS).

Luke eventually returns to Dagobah, but Yoda tells him he no longer needs additional training -- he succeeded where both Yoda and Obi-Wan expected him to fail. Yoda tries to warn him about the emperor ("Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor, or suffer your father's fate you will"), but doesn't have the chance to say "This guy will fry your ass."

Luke, predictably, again tries to turn Vader. Vader is conflicted once again, as he was in ROTS. His son -- his renewed purpose for living and the only tie he has to the woman he loved and for whom fell to the Dark Side -- is trying to turn him away. His son is what he wanted to be. However, he feels as though he can't change the path he's gone down. "It is...too late for me, son" can easily be read as "I wish I could do what you ask, but I'm just too far gone...I'm sorry."

So Luke confronts the emperor. And he gets owned, much as everyone knew he would. The most powerful Jedi fell before the emperor, why should Luke be any different? But Luke has reignited enough of Anakin's compassion and love that he cannot bear to watch Luke suffer, so he turns on the emperor -- the only one who could feasibly do it -- and defeats him.

So, all that having been said, Luke was not a weapon to be used against the emperor. Luke was a catalyst to reawaken the good man in Anakin and destroy the emperor.

Then why does Obi Wan clearly and unambiguously tell Luke that he no longer thinks Anakin can be saved? If this was now the plan, why would Obi Wan tell Luke he doesn't think it's even possible for Luke to do what this plan now calls for him to do?

What's equally likely is that Yoda simply tells Luke that he no longer needs additional training, because with Yoda about to die, whether he needs it or not, there is now no one to give it to him, and Yoda doesn't want to come right out and tell Luke: "sorry kid, but you're just not up to the job", because telling him so dishearten him, and possibly make him give up onh the job he had to do. And what Yoda and Obi Wan may have been expecting to happen was that Luke would not confront the emperor so soon, but that he would continue to train on his own, that he would train his sister, and perhaps found a new order of Jedi, and together they would all take on and hopefully defeat the emperor. However, events proceeded in their own way, and Luke was forced to confront the emperor almost immediately. He survived because he was able to do what Yoda and Obi Wan clearly did not think could be done -- reawaken some spark of good in Anakin, causing him to turn on and destroy the emperor (and simultaneously, the Sith). Thus the prophecy, which as I pointed out earlier, Yoda was skeptical of, was fulfilled after all.

[McC]

Then why does Obi Wan clearly and unambiguously tell Luke that he no longer thinks Anakin can be saved? If this was now the plan, why would Obi Wan tell Luke he doesn't think it's even possible for Luke to do what this plan now calls for him to do?

Obi-wan doesn't, though.

"There is still good in him."
"He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and evil."

He doesn't say, "No, there isn't." Obi-wan is merely commenting on how difficult it will be to appeal to Anakin's humanity. It's probably partly a motivator. Luke can't go into this thinking, "My only purpose is to make my dad fight the emperor" because he'll fail. He has to go into it thinking his purpose is to defeat the emperor, even though it's not.

[Perinquus]

Then why does Obi Wan clearly and unambiguously tell Luke that he no longer thinks Anakin can be saved? If this was now the plan, why would Obi Wan tell Luke he doesn't think it's even possible for Luke to do what this plan now calls for him to do?

Obi-wan doesn't, though.

Yes, he does. He just doesn't come out and say it directly. He doesn't even hint at agreement with Luke's assertion.

"There is still good in him."
"He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and evil."

Yes, and what is this? It is Luke asserting that there is still good in Vader, and Kenobi's only answer is to express doubt that this is so.

He doesn't say, "No, there isn't." Obi-wan is merely commenting on how difficult it will be to appeal to Anakin's humanity.

He doesn't say there is either. He doesn't even suggest it. If this really were the plan, one might expect him to nod and say: "Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side or of the Emperor. If there is any good left in Anakin, you will have to be strong with the Force, and resist the Emperor to the last in order to awaken it in him", or something. If this really were the plan, to get Luke to redeem his father, one would expect it to be stated in some way, and it never is. Not once. Anywhere.

And in fact, against this we have quotes like "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Over an over again, this point is emphasized. No Jedi seems to think there is any coming back. And we have Yoda's statements in ROTS, wherein he doubts the prophecy, and wherein he points out that it is so vague the most common interpretation of it might well be completley wrong. You are postulating that Yoda laid his plans around a concept which he is positively known to have held in a great deal of doubt.

It's probably partly a motivator. Luke can't go into this thinking, "My only purpose is to make my dad fight the emperor" because he'll fail. He has to go into it thinking his purpose is to defeat the emperor, even though it's not.

No, I still think my interpretation fits in with all the evidence better. Yoda and Obi Wan both doubted that there was any possibility of redeeming Vader, and Yoda clearly doubted that the prophecy was in any way a reliable guide. That makes building their plans on what they obviously regarded as a very shaky foundation seem most unlikely. It is far more likely that they saw the creation of a new order of Jedi as a more certain way to destroy the Sith, and they hoped Luke would go on to found that order.

[McC]

No, I still think my interpretation fits in with all the evidence better.

That's more or less what this is going to end up boiling down to for both of us anyway, so I'm just going to emphasize that line. We've each got interpretations and they differ and I'm going to leave it at that. I don't really care if you don't think I'm right. I think I'm right and I've presented my view on the matter for others to view and accept/reject as they will, and that's sufficient for me.

[Stravo]

No, I still think my interpretation fits in with all the evidence better.

That's more or less what this is going to end up boiling down to for both of us anyway, so I'm just going to emphasize that line. We've each got interpretations and they differ and I'm going to leave it at that. I don't really care if you don't think I'm right. I think I'm right and I've presented my view on the matter for others to view and accept/reject as they will, and that's sufficient for me.

When Obi Wan says "You must face Darth Vader again."

and Luke replies "I can't kill my own father."

and Obi Wan replied "Then the emperor has already won."

How does that exchange jibe with your view that Obi Wan wanted him to turn Vader? Its very clear that he has accepted Yoda's view in ROTS that Anakin is gone and he is fervently urging his son to kill Anakin. When Obi Wan walked away from Anakin on Mustafar he said goodbye to him. Next time they meet on the Deathstar he calls him "Darth." and never once references his good side at all.

[Hawkwings]

a quick comment on Luke being more powerful than Vader...

Palpatine could have wanted an even stronger apprentice than Vader. In fact, he probably would have jumped at the chance. So, when he finds out Padme is pregnant (or causes it), he makes the baby really powerful in the Force, same way that Plagious guy did.

[McC]

When Obi Wan says "You must face Darth Vader again."

and Luke replies "I can't kill my own father."

and Obi Wan replied "Then the emperor has already won."

How does that exchange jibe with your view that Obi Wan wanted him to turn Vader? Its very clear that he has accepted Yoda's view in ROTS that Anakin is gone and he is fervently urging his son to kill Anakin. When Obi Wan walked away from Anakin on Mustafar he said goodbye to him. Next time they meet on the Deathstar he calls him "Darth." and never once references his good side at all.

Stravo, you're a parent, right? Have you never said to your daughter, "I bet you can't do X" just to get her to do X? Same exact thing going on here. Obi-wan says, first, "You must face Darth Vader again" (which Luke does). Luke assumes Obi-wan means that he must kill Vader, which isn't what Obi-wan is saying. This has always been blindingly obvious to me, even prior to ROTS. Obi-wan's follow-on line is the whole "I bet you can't do X" style motivator to try and push Luke into the difficult but necessary situation that he will have to face.

[Stravo]

When Obi Wan says "You must face Darth Vader again."

and Luke replies "I can't kill my own father."

and Obi Wan replied "Then the emperor has already won."

How does that exchange jibe with your view that Obi Wan wanted him to turn Vader? Its very clear that he has accepted Yoda's view in ROTS that Anakin is gone and he is fervently urging his son to kill Anakin. When Obi Wan walked away from Anakin on Mustafar he said goodbye to him. Next time they meet on the Deathstar he calls him "Darth." and never once references his good side at all.

Stravo, you're a parent, right? Have you never said to your daughter, "I bet you can't do X" just to get her to do X? Same exact thing going on here. Obi-wan says, first, "You must face Darth Vader again" (which Luke does). Luke assumes Obi-wan means that he must kill Vader, which isn't what Obi-wan is saying. This has always been blindingly obvious to me, even prior to ROTS. Obi-wan's follow-on line is the whole "I bet you can't do X" style motivator to try and push Luke into the difficult but necessary situation that he will have to face.

I don't tell my daughter "You must take the SAT again."

"I can't steal the SAT answer key"

"Then you're not going to college."

Sorry. Obi Wan clearly gave up on Anakin on Mustafar. Why then no acknoweldgement on Anakin's good nature on the Death star. Why the casual acceptance that he was now a Master of Evil and refers to him as Darth.

Why tell his son that he must face Darth Vader again and when Luke menitons "Kill him" you don't correct it then? Look at ESB. Both Yoda and Ben double team Luke and tell him that only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally can defeat Vader and his emperor. No mention at all of turning him.

Obi Wan's insistence that Vader is more machine than man in response to Luke's observation of Vader's good nature is pure and simple a repeat of what Yoda counceled the Young Jedi Master in ROTS. "Consumed by Darth Vader he has become." or are you going to argue that Yoda wanted him to turn Anakin on Mustafar?

Death is implicit in these confrontations. When they try to divide up the confrontations Obi Wan begs to go after the Emperor instead of Anakin because he cannot KILL Anakin. No mention at all at even trying to bring him back. When Padme confronts Obi Wan and aks him "Are you going to kill Anakin." Obi Wan cannot look at her because that is PRECISELY what he's been charged with doing.

Even the emperor is not afraid of this option so secure is he that Anakin is consumed. Yoda HOPED that Vader did not tell Luke the truth on Bespin and looked defeated when Luke asked him about it. Pretty hard to convince him to kill his father no? "Not ready for the burden were you." and what burden was that? He had to confront and kill his father.

You're interpretation requires us to believe that they have discarded their view from the prequels and that their training and emphasis on taking on Vader and defeating him have all been fronts to coax Luke into doing what he can to turn his father.

[McC]

I don't tell my daughter "You must take the SAT again."

"I can't steal the SAT answer key"

"Then you're not going to college."

That's...not a sensical analogy. If you want to do something along those lines, it's more like:

"You must take the SAT again."
"I can't get a 1600..."
"Then I suppose college is out of the question..."

Sorry. Obi Wan clearly gave up on Anakin on Mustafar. Why then no acknoweldgement on Anakin's good nature on the Death star. Why the casual acceptance that he was now a Master of Evil and refers to him as Darth.

I think Obi-wan has an attitude shift during the OT as well. He goes from his ROTS/ANH "Anakin is totally dead" mentality to the ROTJ "You must face him again" mentality. His entire demeanor when he speaks to Luke after Yoda's death is different than it has been previously.

Why tell his son that he must face Darth Vader again and when Luke menitons "Kill him" you don't correct it then? Look at ESB. Both Yoda and Ben double team Luke and tell him that only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally can defeat Vader and his emperor. No mention at all of turning him.

"Only a fully trained Jedi knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vaer and his emperor."

Conquer != kill. Turning Vader is as much conquering as killing him, perhaps even moreso in the eyes of a Jedi.

Obi Wan's insistence that Vader is more machine than man in response to Luke's observation of Vader's good nature is pure and simple a repeat of what Yoda counceled the Young Jedi Master in ROTS. "Consumed by Darth Vader he has become." or are you going to argue that Yoda wanted him to turn Anakin on Mustafar?

Death is implicit in these confrontations. When they try to divide up the confrontations Obi Wan begs to go after the Emperor instead of Anakin because he cannot KILL Anakin. No mention at all at even trying to bring him back. When Padme confronts Obi Wan and aks him "Are you going to kill Anakin." Obi Wan cannot look at her because that is PRECISELY what he's been charged with doing.

No, at that point they were still trying to contain the situation. At that point, they were trying to kill him. It's only after they fail (it may even not be until after Luke destroys the Death Star) that the intention begins to change.

Even the emperor is not afraid of this option so secure is he that Anakin is consumed. Yoda HOPED that Vader did not tell Luke the truth on Bespin and looked defeated when Luke asked him about it. Pretty hard to convince him to kill his father no? "Not ready for the burden were you." and what burden was that? He had to confront and kill his father.

Look at Vader after the escape of the Falcon on Bespin and tell me he doesn't look sad that his son is gone. Tell me that his entire emotional spectrum is just because he lost out on a powerful apprentice, and not because the very thing he turned to the dark side for to begin with -- the purpose he had in doing all the terrible things he does -- has returned.

You're interpretation requires us to believe that they have discarded their view from the prequels and that their training and emphasis on taking on Vader and defeating him have all been fronts to coax Luke into doing what he can to turn his father.

Which is precisely what happens in the end. Luke poses no threat to the emperor. At all. He recognizes that he has become a Jedi ("Then I am a Jedi" "Not yet -- one thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be.") by confronting Vader, but not killing him and himself falling to the dark side. And once he has fully embraced the idea that he's a Jedi, what happens? He gets owned. Completely. So either Yoda was just saying, "No more training do you require -- already know you that which you need" for shits and giggles, or he felt Luke was prepared to do 'the task' -- whatever you want to define 'the task' as.

Luke was sufficiently equipped to face Vader in combat and to resist the temptation of the dark side, but not to face the emperor, as evidenced by how easily he was beaten. So the whole point has to be him facing Vader. And what's the point of Vader being 'defeated', if the emperor is still alive and kicking? This half-baked notion of rebuilding the Jedi order to take down the emperor? Pardon me, is that bullshit I smell? Taking down Palpatine required the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and Luke was the vehicle for that redemption.