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Quite simply, did you feel bad for Anakin at the end of RotS, or did you feel that he got exactly what he deserved?

Personally, I felt like the guy had been duped by a master manipulator into commiting horrendous acts in the name of love. I also fell like Anakin did make an effort to do the right thing, but was always rebuffed by those who were supposed to care for him.

I in no way feel that this excuses Anakins crimes, but I did truely feel sorry for him as the helmet was lowered onto his terrified face. He sacrificed his friends, his family, his humanity, a significant % of his body, and in the end he was left... with nothing. Just a empty hatred that must have chewed him up for the next several decades.

It's possible to feel sympathy for him, but not in a "after doing all of that shit, you still deserve happiness" kind of way. It's more of a "why oh why did you have to be such a fucktard and throw it all away?" kind of feeling.

Even for a Sith Lord he must've had a pretty fucked up outlook on life following that, I doubt Darth Tyranus had similar trauma or emotional problems.

Yeah, I felt sorry for him. For all his power, he had very little wisdom. A lot of people fault Yoda for telling him to train himself to let go of what he was afraid to lose. Thing is, if Anakin had done so, he wouldn't have lost Padme. Yoda was partially right (though such advice wouldn't have worked in the context of his mother, for example).

On a more immediate level, the ligthsabre duel with Obi-Wan was his to lose. He was very foolish to leap right at him. He should've jumped elsewhere and continued the duel there. His victory was pretty much assured otherwise.

(the alternate ending of the RotS video game gives us some idea of what Anakin was possibly trying to do- it occurs in exactly the same way, except Obi-Wan swings too late, Anakin lands behind him and skewers Obi-Wan with a lightning backwards stab. Obi-Wan falls dead, and Anakin pushes his body down to the lava with a kick. It was very cool.)

Regarding that fight: I liked the way Obi-Wan clearly recognized that Anakin was superior to him and kept giving up ground to him, luring him out to exceedingly dangerous environments where he would either have an inbuilt advantage or they might possibly die together. It really showed the kind of maturity he possessed, that he was clearly thinking while fighting. Anakin, meanwhile, was acting entirely on balls and guts, not brains.

I do feel sorry for him. I always felt he was a good kid at heart but he was led astray by bad teachers and influences. I thought the Jedi failed him numerous times (not just in ROTS, but in AOTC), which didn't help anything.

The saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" springs to mind in relation to Anakin. He does get his just desserts at the end, because of his crimes he lives his life with hideous scars and a hatred for all he once loved. But I do feel sympathy for him.

I felt sorry for him, but not in the sense of "aw look at that, how unfair", more like an overwhelming sense of tragedy and waste. I felt sorry for Gendo in Evangelion too, having driven himself into a powerful position, sacrificed all his scruples and then tried to control the entire divine destiny of humanity, all just so he could see his wife one more time. When Anakin no doubt whispers in Padme's ear that he loves her more than anything in the entire universe (right before anal), he means it.

I felt sorry for him as well, mostly because he was blackmailed into a lot of the actions he took.

Does it occur to anyone that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is a bit too... fast? I mean, there's what, a few days between him finding out about Plagious from Palpatine, and him becoming Darth Vader...

I felt sorry for Anakin after he was turned and before he was killed. Once he realised what he had become, he became a tragic figure.

I've personally never felt sorry for Anakin since he was a child. As a child he seemed like a good kid, and i feel sympathy because he was a slave, but as an adult he was a complete dick. And a whiny abusive dick at that. So no i dont feel sorry for Anakin, o feel sorry for the thousands of people dead because of him though.

The same sort of sorry that I feel for Macbeth. You could have been so much, but you threw it away.

Yup, I definitely sympathized with Anakin. i'm going through something of the same thing as he was, I've got fears of someone dying in child-birth at the moment, so every emotional swing he went through, from the Plagueis revelation to "No I need him!" hit home for me and definiteily made me sorry for him.

Anakin lying there dismembered, leaden-skinned, red-eyed, screaming with pain and impotent hatred on the shores of the lava-river was probably the most powerful scene of all six movies for me. Moreso even than his drawing his blade on a child, it drove home what a monstrous and pathetic creature he had become.

After seeing what became of Anakin, I almost can't blame Obi-Wan for telling his "Vader killed your father" lie to Luke. I can understand how his mind might rebel at the notion of reconciling his best friend and "brother" with that shrieking ruin of a man.

No, i don't feel the least bit sorry for him. He was an arrogant whiny brat, he killed his friends and comrades, he slaughtered children, he attacked his pregnent wife and tried to kill the closest thing he had to father who was also the same person who rescued him from slavery and gave him power.

And the only reason he did that was because one guy who he acknowledges is bad says there might be a way to stop his wife dieing from something which might not actually happen. (especially since he caused it)

Not in the least bit sorry for him at all.

I feel sorry in the way that he is the personfication of waste. He had fame, fortune and love. But because he wanted more he destroys and betrays everything. The greatest blow is that it was him that caused this dream to come true. In the end, he made his bed, and had to sleep in it for the next twenty some odd years.

Yes, I felt sorry for him. Like a Greek tragedy (and once again Lucas taps into a mythic archetype -- which may be why this film succeeds almost as well as the OT did), there is a terrible inevitability to the evil unfolding here. Anakin was arrogant and a little whiny. But as I've said elsewhere, I don't think he ever felt like he got much sympathy, acceptance, or recognition in the Jedi order. Mace Windu, from the very beginning opposed his training. So, for that matter, did Yoda. But in ROTS, we see Windu still in an almost hostile, adversarial stance against Skywalker. It is easy to imagine that for the whole of Anakin's time in the Jedi order, he had a strained relationship with Windu, a powerful and influential Jedi Master. Always feeling that he was not quite accepted, it is also easy to see how he would inevitably gravitate towards someone who did give him praise, recognition, approbation, encouragement, and support -- Palpatine. Had Anakin been embraced by those among the Jedi who never trusted him, he might never have been susceptible to Palpatine's influence.

Then, when Anakin discovers Palpatine is a Sith Lord, he tries to do the right thing. Though Palpatine has become a mentor, and something of a father figure, Anakin tells Windu, the only remaining Jedi leader still on Coruscant at that moment what he has discovered, and Windu again excludes Skywalker, thus also giving him time to brood on the idea that Palpatine has planted in his head: that only Palpatine can teach him the knowledge he must have to save his wife. Had Windu, in this moment, showed Anakin any trust by letting him come along and help arrest the chancellor, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Again, like the characters of Greek tragedy, Anakin is a character with the qualities of a great hero, but who is deeply flawed, and is thus prevented from fulfilling the great potential he has. He has it in him to reach heights greater than any other man, but his flaw causes him to fall to the lowest depths. Anakin is a piteous character because he is a literally classical example of tragically flawed greatness, unable to fulfill a heroic potential because of that tragic flaw.

2000AD wrote: And the only reason he did that was because one guy who he acknowledges is bad says there might be a way to stop his wife dieing from something which might not actually happen. (especially since he caused it)

That criticism is unjustified. He sat back and did nothing and ignored his dreams of his mother's pain for who knows how long before he had to go to Tatooine. He went too late, and she died. Why shouldn't he trust his dreams? He'e a Jedi, their dreams and premonitions are more than mere fantasy or nightmares. And what about Obi-Wan's bullshit in that case? "Dreams pass in time." Oh, thanks Obi-Wan, that's great advice. Dick.

Even Luke had the same problem, he had to go save his friends, even though they really didn't need him and his going was absolutely pointless (Leia, Lando and Chewbacca would've gotten away regardless).

The point is what you do with the knowledge, not whether the knowledge is accurate. In all instances, it was, in a twisted sort of way.

2000AD wrote:No, i don't feel the least bit sorry for him. He was an arrogant whiny brat,

So are all the Jedi.

he killed his friends and comrades,

Actually he had no friends and comrades, except for Obi-wan. And yes, he does try to kill Obi-wan but at that point he had become a thrall of the Dark Side. The Jedi council treated him like shit, remember? He was just the 'chosen one' to them, not a person. He starts of by being a slave on Tattooine, but that doesn't really change and becomes almost another slave to a different set of masters. They belittle him for no good reason (such as witholding the title of Master when he's put onto the council - a slap in the face; yes, Obi-wan is right Anakin should have been patient, but aside from that it doesn't excuse the Council for being whiny brats themselves).

he slaughtered children,

Yes, and that was truly despicable.

he attacked his pregnent wife

See above. Not going to defend it.

and tried to kill the closest thing he had to father

I don't recall him trying to kill Palpatine.

who was also the same person who rescued him from slavery

You mean Qui-gon? He was killed by Maul.

and gave him power.

You mean Palpatine?

And the only reason he did that was because one guy who he acknowledges is bad says there might be a way to stop his wife dieing from something which might not actually happen. (especially since he caused it)

His dreams are prescient, and it was obvious to me that he was put under a great deal of stress over it. Having lost a parent there is no end to the amount of second-guessing I put myself through; how do you think Anakin felt when he actually dreamt his mother in great danger, and to have that danger actually realised? You can't dismiss it as "Well I didn't know she was in danger" because the Force was trying to tell him he was going to lose a loved one. The Jedi also failed him because of their 'no-attachments' thing; if such a rule weren't in place, i imagine Anakin would have learnt what happened to his mother that much sooner, and chances are he would have found her before she died, and instead of going insane with grief and rage he would have gotten his mother to safety first.

Same principle in regards to Padme. She means everything to him, and because of this he will do anything for her. Then he dreams he might lose her, and he has the SAME dreams that he had about his mother. I can't help but feel sorry for him because he started out with the best of intentions. Lucas did a clever thing by making it ambiguous who the bad guy was. Yes, we KNOW it's Sidious, but from Anakin's perspective Sidious is Palpatine, the only person who's been his friend. The only Jedi Anakin could call a friend would be Obi-wan, who could sometimes be an overly critical bastard.

Like GR, he made his bed and had to lie in it. I can look at Anakin and see the wasted potential.

Perinquus wrote:Had Windu, in this moment, showed Anakin any trust by letting him come along and help arrest the chancellor, maybe things would have turned out differently.

I am almost certain things would have been radically different. But basically you did a good job of summing up everything I thought about the matter but couldn't put into words.

Stofsk wrote:

2000AD wrote:No, i don't feel the least bit sorry for him. He was an arrogant whiny brat,

So are all the Jedi.

Yoda didn't seem to be an arrogant whiny brat. I also didn't see any other jedi maoning that they weren't on the council, or that they're masters were holding them back.

he killed his friends and comrades,

I'd assumed he treated the rest of the order as comrades, given that they flew in all lightsabres blazing to rescue him and obi in AotC.

(such as witholding the title of Master when he's put onto the council - a slap in the face; yes, Obi-wan is right Anakin should have been patient, but aside from that it doesn't excuse the Council for being whiny brats themselves).

The council is selected by the Jedi AFAIK, not by the Chancellor. Having Palpy putting Anakin on the council is a slap in the face to them. As Obi-Wan pointd out, Anakin should have been happy that he was on the council, given that he was the youngest ever member. But no, Anakin wanted more.

and tried to kill the closest thing he had to father

I don't recall him trying to kill Palpatine.

I don't recall Palpy taking him under his wing, feeding, clothing and taking care of him.
Perhaps i should have said brother, as those are the words Obi uses.

who was also the same person who rescued him from slavery

You mean Qui-gon? He was killed by Maul.

Good point, conceeded.

and gave him power.

You mean Palpatine?

Palpatine trained him for close to ten years? Palpatine taught him how to harness and use his power in ways beyond just good reactions?

And the only reason he did that was because one guy who he acknowledges is bad says there might be a way to stop his wife dieing from something which might not actually happen. (especially since he caused it)

<snip>

I'm not denying he had big feelings for Padme and that he believed she would die.
What i'm saying is that Palpy has just come out and said "I'm the big bad guy that's caused the deaths of millions of people and plunged the galaxy into war" and Anakin sides with him because he also says "I might be able to save your girl IF she is infact going to die soon."

2000AD wrote:Yoda didn't seem to be an arrogant whiny brat. I also didn't see any other jedi maoning that they weren't on the council, or that they're masters were holding them back.

No other Jedi was the Chosen One. Anakin was given that line but didn't get anything but hostility from other Jedi, like Mace Windu. Yoda didn't even want him to be trained.

I'd assumed he treated the rest of the order as comrades, given that they flew in all lightsabres blazing to rescue him and obi in AotC.

Yes, good point.

The council is selected by the Jedi AFAIK, not by the Chancellor. Having Palpy putting Anakin on the council is a slap in the face to them. As Obi-Wan pointd out, Anakin should have been happy that he was on the council, given that he was the youngest ever member. But no, Anakin wanted more.

Yes, but he was insulted. This is a personality flaw, being arrogant and so on, but it was an insult by the Council to Anakin. You're right that Council matters are best handled by the Council, yet they are subordinate to the Chief Executive who happened to be the Chancellor. If the Council had a problem with their Chief Executive telling them what to do, then they can put that up with the Chancellor, not take out their anger on Anakin, who's really caught in the middle.

I don't recall Palpy taking him under his wing, feeding, clothing and taking care of him.

Actually, he does take care of him. He gives a friendly shoulder to cry on, and it is clear that Palpatine is literally the only person Anakin trusts as a confidant. Even PADME had to plead for Anakin to trust her, yet Anakin feels comfortable telling Palpatine his innermost thoughts.

Perhaps i should have said brother, as those are the words Obi uses.

Yes, their relationship is closer to brotherhood than it is to Father-son. I never understood where that came from to be honest; Obi-wan and Anakin bicker in AOTC like two old friends who have spent too much time with each other; their friendship was under a lot of strain due to the master-student relationship they had.

But I genuinely feel the Palpatine-Anakin relationship is closer to Father-son in the Prequels.

Palpatine trained him for close to ten years? Palpatine taught him how to harness and use his power in ways beyond just good reactions?

As much as he could without arousing suspicion or betraying the fact he was a master of the Force - something which isn't revealed until the last days of the Republic - yes, he did.

Palpatine gave all sorts of subtle positive reinforcements over that 10 year period - "You don't need guidance, Anakin. I forsee you becoming the greatest of all Jedi." See? That's a nice thing to say. What does he get from Obi-wan? "Shuddup and follow my lead. Bitch." Yoda? "Let go of your feelings. No attachments." Mace Windu? "I don't trust him." The three big-wigs of the Jedi Order act like Anakin is a big disappointment, while Palpatine acts like Anakin is the best thing the galaxy has ever seen - that has a remarkable effect on someone's personality, especially if that kind of positive reinforcement is made over a period of 10-13 years (as I believe it did).

What i'm saying is that Palpy has just come out and said "I'm the big bad guy that's caused the deaths of millions of people and plunged the galaxy into war" and Anakin sides with him because he also says "I might be able to save your girl IF she is infact going to die soon."

The irony is that Anakin caused Padme to die. He became the very thing he despised, he killed the person he swore to protect, and he was fooled by Palpatine.

See that's part of why I have sympathy for him. Aside from the fact what he did was despicable he nevertheless thought he was doing the right thing. Palpatine also had some kind of influence over Anakin which would be difficult to display on the movie screen. This guy hoodwinked the entire Jedi order, manipulating Anakin and playing him like a fiddle would be child's play in comparison.

It is hard not to feel sorry for him, because he ISN'T some moustache twirling supervillain who needs a bullet to the brain. He became a villain, but he's also a tragic character. He could have averted disaster by choosing a different path, but didn't. He didn't kill the people that were his colleagues because he wanted to - but because he felt he had to (and he was under Palpatine's domination as well as becoming more and more a thrall of the Dark side).

Stofsk wrote:I never understood where that came from to be honest; Obi-wan and Anakin bicker in AOTC like two old friends who have spent too much time with each other;

That is actually exactly the type of relationship I have with my brother.

I did not feel sorry for Anakin. I was angry at him for being such an ass and falling for some pretty transparent lies and manipulations. Were the Jedi good and perfect? Hell no. They were holier than thou and obsessed with the notion of not having attachments. Yoda's line about celebrating the death of a loved one just crystallized for me all that was wrong about the order at that time.

When you listen to Anakin trying to explain the attachment issue in AOTC you start to realize what kind of emotionally twisted beings the Jedi are raising in that temple. Encouraged to love but have no attachment?

Once you start to seperate yourself from humanity (or alienhood you get the point) you start to go down another path that makes you different and less caring. When you look on others from a higher vantage point they all start looking like ants to you. Look at Qui Gon's attitide about the slavery on Tatooine - acceptance without any kind of emotional sympathy. I understand that this is the Jedi way encouraged to resist temptation from the Darkside but it certainly makes them an unsympathteic lot.

But Palpatine was no better and worse in the sense that while the Jedi were jackasses they weren't killing people Anakin respected like Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi. Hell Palpy LIED right at the beginning of his knighting ceremony when he said that only one other Sith has cheated death but we'll discover it together - hellooooo, didn't Palpy insinuate to Anakin that he learned everything from his master? I could hear Gunny Hartman from Full Metal Jacket screaming "Why aren't you stomping his guts out Anakin!" when the lie was clear from the start. Anakin was such a little bitch he accepted that lie and went on to commit some heinous acts.

But the kicker was the scene in the lava pit, where Anakin is pathetically holding on to that ledge and screaming at Obi Wan like a pissed off 8 yo. "I had you!" Obi Wan looked so disgusted at that point that you can see that this is precisely the moment that he decides Anakin is gone and why he and Yoda are so adamant in the OT that there is no good in him. That was such a beautiful scene in the sense that it made the AUDIENCE believe there was no turning back.

Anakin's turn to evil while done for the reason we all suspected would be - for love - the execution felt all wrong to me and frankly Anakin was an unlikable character through two movies so feeling sorry for him was very difficult.

GL recovered the character development for Anakin in ROTS (for shame 2 movies wasted) and made him a likeable character in the first half of this film but not enough to make me say "Poor guy." More like "Dumbass."

It was his decision to attack the Jedi Temple, and to slay the children. He could have accepted responsibility for his actions against Mace Windu, but he fled from his jsut punishment. This is a cowardly action, and for that alone he does not deserve sympathy.
And then we have Mustafa. Instead of saying that he did it all in order to save Padme, he is already planning taking over the Empire. No sympathy here. Anakin Skywalker got his just punishment.

Stofsk wrote:<snip>

Yes, their relationship is closer to brotherhood than it is to Father-son. I never understood where that came from to be honest;

<snip>

What do you mean you don't understand where that came from AotC;

Obi-Wan (aka the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars): Why do I get the feeling that someday you're going to be the death of me Anakin?

Anakin (aka whiny snot nosed brat): Don't say that Master. You're the closest thing I've had to a FATHER.



EDIT :: You know what I can't understand? How are people confusing the Anakin/Palpatine realationship as father/son? Honestly, Palpatine is the kind uncle who tells you everything that you want to hear, listens to you whinge bitch and moan and nods sagely and tells you that everything will be alright, the kind uncle who builds up your self esteem and says; don't worry we'll keep this little rule breaking to ourselves, no need to tell your father (Obi-Wan) *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*. The old kind uncle, who from time to time calls your parents rude words when you're pissed at them in order to garner your trust.

Need I go on?

I felt sorry for Anakin. He tried to save Padme from her death and failed. For fuck sake he turned to the dark side because he wanted to save Padme! (ok he had some Palpatine brainwashing, but I believe Padme's death was the key catalyst in his slide into darkness).

Then after going through so much, he killed his own wife (at least that was what he was told). Strangely, enough he didn't rip the guts out of Sidious... I would have, Anger is the Dark Side of the force, and it was Anger that killed his wife at the end.