StarDestroyer.Net BBS

That whole thing about having the "higher ground" is that actually realistic?

Actually in loads of sword fighting, and hell most fighting, yes.

Obi Wan was in a better position for pretty much anything.

Also, I think he may have been goading Anakin into a hasty and unwise direct attack rather than moving around and getting onto the rocks some other way. It's not like Anakin isnt retarded and impulsive or anything...

Of course fighting from an elevated position is more advantageous. Even in modern combat, who has the more ideal position, the armoured brigade on the roads or the B-52s at 50,000 ft?

2000AD wrote:That whole thing about having the "higher ground" is that actually realistic?

It wasn't "over", as Obi-Wan claimed. However he did have an advantage- one that Anakin need not have rushed headlong into in such a spectacularly foolish way.

I dunno: that platform didn't seem to be controllable, so Anakin was essentially stuck in a corner under Obi-wan. Thats a pretty commanding position.

Vympel wrote:It wasn't "over", as Obi-Wan claimed. However he did have an advantage- one that Anakin need not have rushed headlong into in such a spectacularly foolish way.

An important part of fighting with a blade is often fucking with the other guys head...gain an advantage and then convince the other guy to do what you want. Hence what I said above.

Given Anakin's obvious anger and hotheadedness that showed later on in the film (not to mention in AotC when he rushed Dooky on his own), then Obi-Wan expected he'd take the bait and screw up. If he didn't, the duel would just carry on, albeit with Obi-Wan having a distinct advantage.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Given Anakin's obvious anger and hotheadedness that showed later on in the film (not to mention in AotC when he rushed Dooky on his own), then Obi-Wan expected he'd take the bait and screw up. If he didn't, the duel would just carry on, albeit with Obi-Wan having a distinct advantage.

Not really- Obi-Wan gave up ground the entire fight, for obvious reasons, Anakin is a better duelist and stronger in the force than him. I don't have much doubt that Anakin could've attacked him on level ground again if he hadn't been so impulsive.

One thing I didn't like about the last fight was that they used the music where Vader is hurling machinery at Luke for the Sidious vs Yoda confrontation. That's Vader's music, dammit, I was expecting to see Anakin hurling things at Obi-Wan. That would've been awesome.

I never saw Anakin as being the one to try using those Force powers in such a duel then. He seemed more content in settling it with just lightsabre skills.

Call me thick, but how was Anakin going to get off that platform? Is he really stupid enough to not take the 'jump to the side' option?

Given Anakins obvious superiority in the earlier fight, you'd think he'd just jump straight at Obi-wan and use his margin of superiority to make up for the bad/no footing long enough to get level, rather than risk it all on a retarded move like that.

Higher ground is vital in combat with swords and other melee weapons. Medieval defensive strategy revolved around this, involving the use of everything from hills and ramparts to spiral staircases to put your guys on the higher position whenever possible.
I guess it's also the reason why swashbuckling heroes in old movies like to jump on tables.

Would I be wrong in saying you need some separation to use Force powers?Perhaps it isn't easy to use them right in the midst of saber's swinging and clashing.


As for "jump to the side", perhaps Obi-Wan would have simply moved to the side as well to intercept him, and moving a shorter distance with less effort to do so, thus pushing the initiative advantage even further in Obi-Wan's favor.

Yeah, I figure that Anakin could've jumped higher to avoid the chop, but that'd give Obi-wan time to turn and hit him before he got his footing anyway.

I hope the intention was for Obi-wan to see an opportunity to end it, convince Anakin he had few options, and take advantage of his recklessness. Outsmarting him, since he couldn't outfight him.

GL makes a few statements abvout this duel that are telling for this example. He says that Obi Wan wins solely based on his experience, that he is thouroughly outclassed in every other way. He uses his experience to gain the better ground and manuever Anakin to where he wants him and more importantly as Anakin's teacher he knows all of Anakin's foibles and weaknesses. He knows Anakin is headstrong and arrogant so in a sense he goaded him with the high ground statement.

Remember that by that point Anakin states the jedi are evil and Obi Wan says "Then you are lost!" It is here when Obi Wan makes his move, places Anakin in a position where he either has to yield or take him head on. Obi Wan is relatively confident he can take on Anakin at this point, and notice he strikes to maim Anakin, no beheading. Even then, at the end, he could not bring himself to kill Anakin.

Obi Wan was in a win win position at this point. Anakin would have to retreat - exposing himself to Obi Wan. Yield - giving the fight to Obi Wan. Or Attack where Obi Wan could kill him. Obi Wan won that duel by outsmarting Anakin - a brilliant callback to TPM where he outsmarts Maul because he can't outfight him.

Stravo wrote:GL makes a few statements abvout this duel that are telling for this example. He says that Obi Wan wins solely based on his experience, that he is thouroughly outclassed in every other way. He uses his experience to gain the better ground and manuever Anakin to where he wants him and more importantly as Anakin's teacher he knows all of Anakin's foibles and weaknesses. He knows Anakin is headstrong and arrogant so in a sense he goaded him with the high ground statement.

When was this? This pretty much confirms my thoughts about it. It really also adds some resonance (which I knew already from other canon, but anyway) to Obi-Wan's death on the Death Star.

No funky terrain to take advantage of. No young, brash enemy to make foolish mistakes of overconfidence (Maul, Vader). Just a Sith Lord, facing him down the corridor, red blade in his hand. No hope of victory. Time's up- time to become one with the Force. Cool ....

Remember that by that point Anakin states the jedi are evil and Obi Wan says "Then you are lost!" It is here when Obi Wan makes his move, places Anakin in a position where he either has to yield or take him head on. Obi Wan is relatively confident he can take on Anakin at this point, and notice he strikes to maim Anakin, no beheading. Even then, at the end, he could not bring himself to kill Anakin.

Obi Wan was in a win win position at this point. Anakin would have to retreat - exposing himself to Obi Wan. Yield - giving the fight to Obi Wan. Or Attack where Obi Wan could kill him. Obi Wan won that duel by outsmarting Anakin - a brilliant callback to TPM where he outsmarts Maul because he can't outfight him.

If Anakin had retreated, Obi-Wan would've gained nothing, and he would've found himself duelling someone better than him all over again. Anakin had plenty of choices, including just taking the faster loader droid elsewhere and disembarking and hunting Obi-Wan down. He would never have yielded, of course- he had no reason to. However, Obi-Wan didn't strike to maim Anakin on purpose. He was actually going to climb down there and kill him, but that would be more time than he really had (Palpatine's shuttle was coming, for all he knew, Yoda was dead)- RotS novelization.

Obi-Wan was an idiot for not stepping down and finishing it at the end though.

However, this scene did bring up a point. If, at any time in the future, I become a Jedi or Sith and am forced to fight my oposite, I want a nice open feild. Think Kansas. No clifs. No cassams, no pits. No object to toss around. No lava to fall into. I want the boringest terrain you could ever find.

With regards to Anakin's ill-fated leap, he did almost exactly the same move when going from the droid to the platform. Rather than chopping him in the air, Obi Wan turned slowly enough for him to get enough balance to re-engage.

There was mention in another thread of the alternate ending, where Anakin leaps over Obi Wan's head and does a lightning reversal to stab him. He might have been thinking to do a variation on the leap to the platform, and Obi Wan was also thinking in those terms and made the better move.

Edit- By alternate ending, I mean alternate ending to the ROTS game.

You fools. Anyone who has played Halo 2 knows that you can't expect to kill someone with a sword if they're on top of an incline that you have to run up to reach them. You people would know this if you had any real-world experience with swords.

Joe wrote:You fools. Anyone who has played Halo 2 knows that you can't expect to kill someone with a sword if they're on top of an incline that you have to run up to reach them. You people would know this if you had any real-world experience with swords.

Too much Halo 2 played, you have.

I notice that Anakin was trying to perform the exact same finishing move that Obi-wan had done to Darth Maul in TPM. Obi-Wan knew exactly how to counter that attack, and wouldn't be suckered like Maul was.

President Sharky wrote:I notice that Anakin was trying to perform the exact same finishing move that Obi-wan had done to Darth Maul in TPM. Obi-Wan knew exactly how to counter that attack, and wouldn't be suckered like Maul was.

That was a parallel that I didn't catch. Sweet. Even more context now.

Vympel wrote:

Stravo wrote:GL makes a few statements abvout this duel that are telling for this example. He says that Obi Wan wins solely based on his experience, that he is thouroughly outclassed in every other way. He uses his experience to gain the better ground and manuever Anakin to where he wants him and more importantly as Anakin's teacher he knows all of Anakin's foibles and weaknesses. He knows Anakin is headstrong and arrogant so in a sense he goaded him with the high ground statement.

When was this? This pretty much confirms my thoughts about it. It really also adds some resonance (which I knew already from other canon, but anyway) to Obi-Wan's death on the Death Star.

It was in an interview I saw on TV, might be a DVD extra on one of the Star Wars DVD's or a fluff piece on ROTS but he says something to the effect that "Anakin is more powerful than Obi Wan in the Force and a better deulist but Obi Wan has the edge in experience and as Anakin's teacher he knows all of Anakin's weaknesses and he uses this to win."

Vympel wrote:If Anakin had retreated, Obi-Wan would've gained nothing, and he would've found himself duelling someone better than him all over again. Anakin had plenty of choices, including just taking the faster loader droid elsewhere and disembarking and hunting Obi-Wan down. He would never have yielded, of course- he had no reason to.

I was thinking that Anakin would either have to turn his back on Obi Wan or leap somewhere else and open himself up to a saber throw from Obi Wan or a Force push that would tilt him into the lava in mid leap.

President Sharky wrote:I notice that Anakin was trying to perform the exact same finishing move that Obi-wan had done to Darth Maul in TPM. Obi-Wan knew exactly how to counter that attack, and wouldn't be suckered like Maul was.

Well, almost the exact same. Obi-Wan was in a much worse position then. Maul, like most Sith, should've had his guard up. If he had just brought his sabre up to guard he would've bisected Obi-Wan clear down the middle.

Petrosjko wrote:

President Sharky wrote:I notice that Anakin was trying to perform the exact same finishing move that Obi-wan had done to Darth Maul in TPM. Obi-Wan knew exactly how to counter that attack, and wouldn't be suckered like Maul was.

That was a parallel that I didn't catch. Sweet. Even more context now.

Very cool point.
I didn't notice this either before.