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Thinking about the Palpatine=t3h k1ng thing (with regards to 'defeating' Yoda), I had a look at all Sith combat in the PT.

First, Maul. Maul holds off a master and a padawan with seemlingly little effort. He controls the fight easily, killing the master. He is defeated because he's a dumbass.

Tyrannous. Pwnzors a padawan instantly, mucks about with Obi-wan before defeating him easily. Defeats the untrained but most powerful Jedi in existence with no injuries.
Later, Tyrannous fights Yoda, and doesn't die. He isn't even hit. He fights Yoda for some time, defending himself against the Monkey On Crack. He distracts Yoda and escapes. Yoda can absorb lightening with his hand, and Tyrannous gives up attempts to zap him.
Tyrannous is defeated by Anakin, after casually disposing of Obi-wan once again. At this point, Tyrannous isn't dismissive of Anakin, and Anakin is obviously more powerful.

Sidious. Sidous utterly rapes three jedi (I assume they're masters). Fighting their 'most powerful' sabre artist, he either throws the fight or gets owned. After losing his sabre, he's able to defend himself for some time, and Windu has no answer to the 'constant lightening barrage'.
Sidious later fights Yoda. He zaps Yoda, and apparently expects this to have killed or disabled him permanently. It doesn't, and they fight with sabres. He can defend himself, but eventually resorts to lightening and throwing things at Yoda. Yoda falls, has a cry and runs away.

From this, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that contrary to previous evidence, YODA is the most powerful/effective sabre user in the galaxy. He is never defeated with swordplay, and his opponents are always forced to use other (effective) methods to defeat or distract him. He is the only person in the galaxy to absorb lightening, something that appeared to surprise Tyrannous somewhat. However, Anakin could potentially be higher in power.

Sidious doesn't appear to be substantially more powerful than Tyrannous. He's the Man With The Plan, but he couldn't penetrate Yoda's Monkey On Crack style either. I'm not sure if the Senate TK was more powerful than Tyrannous'. Further, the 'melting face' thing might be deliberate, since during the clash with Yoda he displayed no ill effects from a similar event - although it was further away from him.

Anakin(ROTS) is obviously more powerful than Obi-wan(ROTS), but being more powerful than Tyrannous arguably makes him equivalent to Yoda/Palpatine. Windus reputation and Tyrannous' initially dismissive attitude towards Yoda suggests that the secret of Monkey On Crack fighting is closely kept, even from members of the Jedi order.

This is all muddied by the shroud of the dark side, particularly the Anakin-Tyrannous battle, which might be more or less due to the Emperors interference. It is however clear that between AOTC and ROTS Anakin increases in power substantially, and Obi-wan believes he will become even more powerful with time.

Any thoughts/criticisms/things I've forgotten? I don't recall the Yoda/Sidious fight very well (it kinda bored me), so I might have forgotten the first stage of the Senate room fight.

Who's Tyrannous? I know of a Darth Tyranus, however.

Seems about right, but i disagree on two points:

1--I think that Anakin is more powerful, in terms of raw power and potential, than maybe Sidious but not Yoda. Yoda has sheer skill, speed, and a very, very effective sword technique i doubt can be really countered so while he might be about equal to Anakin in force power, arguable, he is most certainly more experienced and skilled than Anakin and Sidious.

2--Sidious, i think, got lucky against Mace. Really, he wouldnt have thrown a fight that badly or let himself be hurt like that if he could have stopped it, he's arrogant not crazy. I think Mace just was a better swordsman than him, but not as powerful in the force perhaps. Overall, i think they're about equal.

Yoda is like number one, with Sidious just below that on par with Mace, and oh is it close there. Anakin would be number one, but is not good enough overall despite being as powerful as Yoda in the Force.

No, Sidious exceeds Yoda in terms of capability. Yoda admits this to himself during the fight in the novelisation, and it seems to be displayed on the film IMO (Yoda chooses to retreat rather than go back for Round Two).

Stofsk wrote:No, Sidious exceeds Yoda in terms of capability. Yoda admits this to himself during the fight in the novelisation, and it seems to be displayed on the film IMO (Yoda chooses to retreat rather than go back for Round Two).

I kinda figured this was because he was hurt, but more importantly, a legion of elite clonetroopers was no doubt about to bust in and fill the air around him with sizzling bolts. Barring the CW cartoon, even Yoda wouldn't be able to defeat Sidious with that going on. The idea i've got is he had to win swiftly or he'd never win. Sidious also tried to run away at the start, presumably to his troops.

Yoda lost because he fell like a hundred feet and hit his BACK like his SPINE on a steel outcropping.

Trust me, you'd retreat too.

He wasnt being owned by Sidious though. In fact, Sidious struck me as kind of like "What the hell is this guy, he should be dead!!" i genuinely saw it as a sort of desperation move by Sids. He realized he had met someone who was at least as powerful as him and much, much faster and his only counter was to pull some shit.

Happened before. Yoda fights Tyrannus, and he realizes that Yoda is handing him his ex-Jedi ass on a plate. So he pulls some TK tricks and distracts Yoda.

The difference is, Sidious was more of a hard ass and got lucky so he could take advantage of this better and Tyrannus ran like a skurd little bitch.

Dont get me wrong, Sidious is powerful, but i think both Yoda and Anakin are more powerful. Anakin has more raw power but little control, so he takes a step down. Yoda has power at least as strong as Sidious but better skills and more experience, so he is just a hir higher on the scale, just a hair.

Think about it for a second; Yoda goes full-blast against Dooku, and he only escapes by running away. Yoda goes full-blast against Palpatine, and throughout the whole fight they are evenly matched, or Palpatine has the upper hand. Clearly Palpatine is more powerful in direct combat than Yoda.

Of course, if Yoda had gone Dark Side, he would have pasted Palpatine against the walls. And then become Emperor Yoda. Which would have been helluva funny (note to Lucas: include that as an alternate ending on the DVD).

I'm stunned at how durable Yoda is at 900 or so years old.

I mean really, think about this, he hit his SPINE on solid steel from a hundred feet up...and still got up and escaped. I'm shocked he wasnt snapped in half instantly.

The only thing i can think of is a--he has some regenerative power, perhaps an explaination for his long lifespan, or b--he slowed his fall a bit with the Force.

Either way, i felt he could maybe win against Sidious throughout the fight but when i saw him hit that outcrupping, and it made that sicking 'THUD' sound i remember leaning over to my mom and saying "He's gone. Thats it he's down for good."

No way that didnt injure him badly, even IF he has some other power that saved him. Even if he was stronger than Sidious at that point he was lucky to still be alive.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Who's Tyrannous? I know of a Darth Tyranus, however.

LOL oh foo.

Technically I think Sidious got an early advantage from the zap he gave Yoda before the fight. While Yoda fell and Sidious didn't, Yoda was indeed keeping up with Sidious throughout the fight.

Stark wrote: Anakin(ROTS) is obviously more powerful than Obi-wan(ROTS)

Obi-wan may not be so impressive in terms of force powers, but he wins a lot of fights including vs the above.

TPM:
Darth Maul vs. Qui Gonn Jinn, Qui Gonn holds off Maul and the ship escapes Tatooine. NON RESULT/DRAW

Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gonn Jinn, Qui Gonn is killed but Obi Wan manages to take advantage of Maul's overconfidence. One Jedi Master Killed, One SIth Apprentice Killed, DRAW

AOTC:
Tyranus vs. Obi Wan and Anakin, Dooku defeats both of them. SITH WIN

Tyranus vs. Yoda, Fight ends as Dooku escapes while Yoda is preoccupied with saving Obi Wan and Anakin, NON RESULT/DRAW

RoTS:
Tyranus vs. Obi Wan and Anakin, Obi Wan is knocked out of the fight but Anakin proves his strength by decisively defeating Dooku. JEDI WIN

Sidious vs. Mace Windu Kit Fisto and Two other Jedi, Palpatine kills Fisto and the other two Jedi, Sidious leads Windu on to convince Anakin to side with him. Windu is killed after Anakin intervenes and Palpatine launches him through the shattered window. SITH WIN

Vader vs. Jedi Temple, from what we see of Anakin dueling the Jedi he seems to be slaying many of them (not all of them younglings). Clonetroopers are also doing their fair share. SITH WIN

Sidious vs. Yoda, Sidious and Yoda have a great duel but Yoda is forced to flee and acknowledges his failure to Bail Organa, SITH WIN

Vader vs. Obi Wan, overconfident Anakin ends up getting triple amputated by his teacher. JEDI WIN

ANH:
Vader vs. Obi Wan, Vader defeats Obi Wan on the Death Star, SITH WIN

ESB:
Vader vs. Luke, Vader defeats Luke at Bespin, SITH WIN

RoTJ:
Vader vs. Luke vs. Palpatine, the climactic throne room battle, Luke eventually defeats Vader, Palpatine then unleashes his rage on Luke but is then killed by Vader. Both Sith dead, JEDI WIN.



It appears the Sith are 6-3-3, in terms of Wins Losses and Draws, anyone who has criticisms of above post please give.

ANH:
Vader vs. Obi Wan, Vader defeats Obi Wan on the Death Star, SITH WIN

This is a very strange fight. When Obi-wan sees Luke he lowers his light sabre and lets Vader kill him.

I am of the belief that Vader would have defeated Obi Wan either way, but that Obi Wan was able to manage it in such a way that would allow Luke to escape and to allow his successful "merging with the Force", or something like that.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Yoda lost because he fell like a hundred feet and hit his BACK like his SPINE on a steel outcropping.

Trust me, you'd retreat too.

He wasnt being owned by Sidious though. In fact, Sidious struck me as kind of like "What the hell is this guy, he should be dead!!" i genuinely saw it as a sort of desperation move by Sids. He realized he had met someone who was at least as powerful as him and much, much faster and his only counter was to pull some shit.

Happened before. Yoda fights Tyrannus, and he realizes that Yoda is handing him his ex-Jedi ass on a plate. So he pulls some TK tricks and distracts Yoda.

The difference is, Sidious was more of a hard ass and got lucky so he could take advantage of this better and Tyrannus ran like a skurd little bitch.

Dont get me wrong, Sidious is powerful, but i think both Yoda and Anakin are more powerful. Anakin has more raw power but little control, so he takes a step down. Yoda has power at least as strong as Sidious but better skills and more experience, so he is just a hir higher on the scale, just a hair.

I disagree. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Several things to point out:

1) Sidious wasnt really fighting properly throughout the entire battle. You can see him laughing, chuckling, snarling, even yawning! Despite that he was holding his own against Yoda.

2) I believe if Sidious had put more effort into that duel (i.e. using his fucking anger to focus his energy instead of playing round), Yoda may have been toast.

3) The fact that Sidious "lost" during the battle, like that Force Lightning standoff could have been because he wasnt using his full concentration and power. From the movie, I think Yoda was about to be fried, until he mustered out all of his force power to counter the Force Lightning. Sidious was however laughing with glee and failed to notice it until it was too late.

So how would you rate the more powerful Jedi/Sith? If you count pure skill and experience, I say Sidious wins. But if you include Sidious over-confidence and lack of focus, Yoda can win.

Rommie2006 wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Yoda lost because he fell like a hundred feet and hit his BACK like his SPINE on a steel outcropping.

Trust me, you'd retreat too.

He wasnt being owned by Sidious though. In fact, Sidious struck me as kind of like "What the hell is this guy, he should be dead!!" i genuinely saw it as a sort of desperation move by Sids. He realized he had met someone who was at least as powerful as him and much, much faster and his only counter was to pull some shit.

Happened before. Yoda fights Tyrannus, and he realizes that Yoda is handing him his ex-Jedi ass on a plate. So he pulls some TK tricks and distracts Yoda.

The difference is, Sidious was more of a hard ass and got lucky so he could take advantage of this better and Tyrannus ran like a skurd little bitch.

Dont get me wrong, Sidious is powerful, but i think both Yoda and Anakin are more powerful. Anakin has more raw power but little control, so he takes a step down. Yoda has power at least as strong as Sidious but better skills and more experience, so he is just a hir higher on the scale, just a hair.

I disagree. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Several things to point out:

1) Sidious wasnt really fighting properly throughout the entire battle. You can see him laughing, chuckling, snarling, even yawning! Despite that he was holding his own against Yoda.

2) I believe if Sidious had put more effort into that duel (i.e. using his fucking anger to focus his energy instead of playing round), Yoda may have been toast.

3) The fact that Sidious "lost" during the battle, like that Force Lightning standoff could have been because he wasnt using his full concentration and power. From the movie, I think Yoda was about to be fried, until he mustered out all of his force power to counter the Force Lightning. Sidious was however laughing with glee and failed to notice it until it was too late.

So how would you rate the more powerful Jedi/Sith? If you count pure skill and experience, I say Sidious wins. But if you include Sidious over-confidence and lack of focus, Yoda can win.

You have to remember that sidious was using both the light and the dark side last Yoda only the light. This allows some one who may be "weaker" than the Yoda to win and help explain is victory.

Any way the Sidious started off joking around but he was looking angry towards the end. I think if Yoda had not fell he would have won(I really hope there is a Yoda goes dark DVD extra that would be so funny-maybe some one could do a fan movie- you could have him sitting in the deathstar throne room it would be great.).

Rommie2006 wrote:I disagree. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Several things to point out:

1) Sidious wasnt really fighting properly throughout the entire battle. You can see him laughing, chuckling, snarling, even yawning! Despite that he was holding his own against Yoda.

Yoda was also holding his own against Sidious. It seemed pretty indecisive.

Rommie2006 wrote:2) I believe if Sidious had put more effort into that duel (i.e. using his fucking anger to focus his energy instead of playing round), Yoda may have been toast.

Based on... nothing. Nice evidence. Sidious quite obviously expected Yoda to be toast after a single zap.

Rommie2006 wrote:3) The fact that Sidious "lost" during the battle, like that Force Lightning standoff could have been because he wasnt using his full concentration and power. From the movie, I think Yoda was about to be fried, until he mustered out all of his force power to counter the Force Lightning. Sidious was however laughing with glee and failed to notice it until it was too late.

So... he holds off the lightening with his HAND, then cancels it out, therefore Sidious must have been holding back? Rubbish. Yoda assed up his landing (due to poor positioning at the edge of a saucer and likely the earlier zap), but in both sabre use and force power Yoda was doing just fine. He could clearly use some lessons in tactics from Obi-wan, however.

Stofsk wrote:No, Sidious exceeds Yoda in terms of capability. Yoda admits this to himself during the fight in the novelisation, and it seems to be displayed on the film IMO (Yoda chooses to retreat rather than go back for Round Two).

In a very real sense, this is because Yoda was too good to win. Had Yoda gotten angry like Luke did in RotJ, Sidious would have been fucked with a capital F. Of course, as Yoda isn't as... grounded... as Luke, this would likely have resulted in Emperor Yoda.

Sidious could well have lost that fight, if Yoda had a slightly different mindset - that was why Sidious tried to run away at first. Similarly, if Yoda had lept up onto the high ground first, he may well have won. There certainly isn't much in it either way.

Most of this is cross-posted from the Jedi or Sith poll. Seems like it belongs here more.

No Sith (other than Vader's 'fighting in water' style of the original trilogy) fights using a standard Jedi style. Since the standard Jedi saber style is what they train to fight against, using a non-standard style puts you at a distinct advantage. The only Jedi most Sith would have to worry about is Yoda, with his Super-Jedi-Bouncy-Ball style.

Maul fought originally with only half of his saber, using a style similar to that of the Jedi. This may have been an oversight, but consider this: Maul, had he killed Qui-Gonn, would not have captured Padme, as the ship was in the air and just waiting for the end of the battle to get the hell out. Maul realised he wasn't going to win here, so fought poorly on purpose. I'm sure he would have *liked* to kill one of the Jedi, but it wasn't his goal (At the moment). He fought in a way such that he could win, wasn't likely to lose, and in any event would lead the Jedi (in their arrogance) to underestimate him in the next battle. The next time they met, the Jedi expected him to have a single blade and fight in standard Jedi style.

Maul suprised them with his double-blades, fought in a style befitting a two-bladed weapon, and would have slain them both were it not for his own (well founded) arrogance.

Dooku, with his fencing style, takes advantage of the blade's lack of weight and ease of motion. He manages to defeat everyone but Yoda, and when he's on the offensive, both Obi-wan and Anakin (skilled saber-weilders both) seem hard-pressed to keep up.

Sideous fights cautiously against Windu, after using an initial all-out attack to kill three Masters. He fights with quick thrusts and parries, all the time guarding himself. This is a fight I'll have to watch again (and again and again) to take everything in. His style, while somewhat similar to Dooku's, seems to be entirely his own. It is effective against Yoda as well as Windu (though I'm sure the arguments about that battle will rage for quite a while).

No Sith should ever lose a lightsaber battle against a single opponent of roughly equal power, barring environmental factors. Lightsaber battles are about finesse, and that's what the Sith are all about. As an underground, hidden group, the Sith have had to rely on secrecy and manipulation, ever cautious. This is evident in their fighting styles and greatly helpful against the arrogant Jedi.

Kaintukee_Bob wrote:Maul fought originally with only half of his saber, using a style similar to that of the Jedi. This may have been an oversight, but consider this: Maul, had he killed Qui-Gonn, would not have captured Padme, as the ship was in the air and just waiting for the end of the battle to get the hell out. Maul realised he wasn't going to win here, so fought poorly on purpose. I'm sure he would have *liked* to kill one of the Jedi, but it wasn't his goal (At the moment). He fought in a way such that he could win, wasn't likely to lose, and in any event would lead the Jedi (in their arrogance) to underestimate him in the next battle. The next time they met, the Jedi expected him to have a single blade and fight in standard Jedi style.

I like your analysis, but I think it's a bit subtle for Darth Maul. I feel it's more likely that Maul realises the two-blade style, against a single opponent, is inferior to the one-blade style.

Musashi didn't fight Kojiro with two blades.

Think about it for a second; Yoda goes full-blast against Dooku, and he only escapes by running away. Yoda goes full-blast against Palpatine, and throughout the whole fight they are evenly matched, or Palpatine has the upper hand. Clearly Palpatine is more powerful in direct combat than Yoda.

I disagree. When Yoda brought his full strength to bear against Palpy's lightning he was able to not just counterract it, he was able to push in BACK and make Palpy fly backwards. I would say that decisively proved he was stronger in the force.

Justforfun000 wrote:
I disagree. When Yoda brought his full strength to bear against Palpy's lightning he was able to not just counterract it, he was able to push in BACK and make Palpy fly backwards. I would say that decisively proved he was stronger in the force.

You forget that Yoda went flying as well.

He did? hmmmmm

Then how the hell did Yoda end up at the bottom of the Senate buildinf if he wasn't sent back flying? Hell, Yoda was thrown away further than Palpatine.

To be honest I missed that being the reason he fell. In any event he still was able to blast him back

Justforfun000 wrote:

Think about it for a second; Yoda goes full-blast against Dooku, and he only escapes by running away. Yoda goes full-blast against Palpatine, and throughout the whole fight they are evenly matched, or Palpatine has the upper hand. Clearly Palpatine is more powerful in direct combat than Yoda.

I disagree. When Yoda brought his full strength to bear against Palpy's lightning he was able to not just counterract it, he was able to push in BACK and make Palpy fly backwards. I would say that decisively proved he was stronger in the force.

That was because Sidious was too busy laughing and having a good time... If you rewatch the scene, you can clearly see Yoda was "summoning" all his power. Look at his facial expression, Yoda gave his 110% power and manage to repel the force lightning.

What would have happened if Sidious focused all his concentration and anger in frying Yoda? I believe Yoda's ass would be on fire then.