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Simple question, why the hell does Palpatine have such a insipidly weak apprentice when he starts off his plotting for the destruction of all who would oppose him, and how come it seems like he runs through Maul, then Tyrannus, before finally coming to an apprentice he likes, Anakin...?

Because it's somewhat hard to get to the Chosen One without someone to help you. Maul and Tyranus had key roles in the script he was acting writing.

Darth Maul wasn't weak. He killed Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the stronger Jedi Masters in the Order, and nearly killed Obi-Wan Kenobi, who went on to become the third or fourth strongest Jedi in the Clone Wars. Maul's death was an unfortunate fluke that Sidious attributes to bad luck in the TPM novelization. If Maul had survived, Sidious might never have bothered to recruit either Tyranus or Vader, though Anakin's status as the Chosen One would certainly have drawn attention.

I really don't see Sidious ignoring Anakin. If he knew anything of the Force, he'd know from being near Anni just how powerful he could be.

Straha wrote:Simple question, why the hell does Palpatine have such a insipidly weak apprentice when he starts off his plotting for the destruction of all who would oppose him, and how come it seems like he runs through Maul, then Tyrannus, before finally coming to an apprentice he likes, Anakin...?

You have to understand, Maul was a killing machine pure and simple. I dare say he was meant as a "safe" tool to use against the Jedi. Weak he's not but he's also been incredibly focused as well.

Tyrannus/Dooku was an adaption on the fly. Paplatine recruited him for the simple reason that he needed a competent, capable underling to get things back on track. And he gave him more training, probably had to to corrupt him, but he was also far more likely to turn on him. Clearly Tyrannus was considering it.

Anakin/Vader he's got an apprentice he can pretty reliably manage and who is powerful enough, even potentially more powerful. And he keeps him on for lack of a better candidate. I dare say he also likes Anakin just a little bit.

Finally when Luke comes along he recognizes the danger, from him and Vader who in the end does take the chance to try and redeem himself instead of giving in to darkness. So he's ready to discard Vader for Luke.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I really don't see Sidious ignoring Anakin. If he knew anything of the Force, he'd know from being near Anni just how powerful he could be.

Of course. He's not stupid.

Most likely if Maul hadn't died, Sidious would have had an extensive list of high body count projects to further his agenda and keep his fanatical killing machine occupied.

The original plan may have just called for someone with a lot of political savvy and connections to rise to power among the economic consortiums. Maul would ensure this leader does exactly as Sidious wishes and would use his Sith skills to assasinate rivals and prevent assasination attempts, all the while never suspecting his replacement, the one Jedi he has probably been begging to off - next to Kenobi - for the better part of a decade, is being groomed.

Maul then probably buys it on Geonosis ensuring the escape of Palpatine's CIS counter part.

Dooku was actually a stroke of luck, a good leader with connections who doesn't need a bodyguard. On the other hand, Dooku is not a pure, simple killing machine, he was a Jedi and is experienced in power games making him far more dangerous to Sidious than Maul.

If Maul had killed Obi Wan, or at least survived the duel, then Dooku would have come looking for him in a similar chain of events to led Dooku down the path of the dark side in canon. Possibly a duel between the two with the winner proving himself worthy to be called a Sith by Sidious.

Woulda been a great fight too.

Sidious needed Maul dead. He had outlived his usefulness. Maul wasn't going to set up the clone army and lead the Separatists.

LordShaithis wrote:Sidious needed Maul dead. He had outlived his usefulness. Maul wasn't going to set up the clone army and lead the Separatists.

If Maul had lived Sidous would have continued along with his original plan (whatever it may have been) since Padme/Amidala would never have been able to force Nut Gunray to sign her treaty and force the TF from Naboo.

LordShaithis wrote:Sidious needed Maul dead. He had outlived his usefulness. Maul wasn't going to set up the clone army and lead the Separatists.

No, he probably wasn't. But it seems Palpatine already had that in motion with out him. My guess is he had plans which would have worked with Maul or with out.

The fact that he can tap men like Dooku or Greivous is rather telling.

I'd take Maul over a ten year old boy as an apprentice, even if he did seem like a waste.

I don't think Maul was that big a part in his plans. I mean it's not like the emperor was really set back by the death of Maul. He was almost expecting it and I think was just using Maul as a sort of "patsy"

He was probably just teaching him till he found a better apprentice and Maul would have been killed anyway. Most likely by Dooku. As some have mentioned above.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Because it's somewhat hard to get to the Chosen One without someone to help you. Maul and Tyranus had key roles in the script he was acting writing.

Is this following the idea that Sidious had everything planned to the finest detail from foresight even before getting the trade federation to blockade, even down to who the boy was going to be, or are we assuming that he saw in the force that there would be a chosen one who would be revealed by some great deed?

In TPM, Maul nearly mows down Anakin on his sithmobile as an innocent bystander, so it seems difficult to believe that Palpatine would have said 'go and kill the bastards, my young apprentice, oh, but if you see a sandy haired little whelp with them, just leave him be for er... shits and giggles, that's it...'

Stormbringer:

You have to understand, Maul was a killing machine pure and simple. I dare say he was meant as a "safe" tool to use against the Jedi. Weak he's not but he's also been incredibly focused as well.

Exactly, Maul wasn't weak. But he was never taught any of the more advanced Sith skill, such as Force lightning. He doesn't need to know it as he was never meant to fight the like of Yoda.

Tyrannus/Dooku was an adaption on the fly. Paplatine recruited him for the simple reason that he needed a competent, capable underling to get things back on track. And he gave him more training, probably had to to corrupt him, but he was also far more likely to turn on him. Clearly Tyrannus was considering it.

A definite stop gap measure. In this case Sids had to teach him some advanced skills. Dooku was already a powerful Jedi Master; Sids had to give him something to make it all worth while. Doubtlessly Sids was very uncomfortable with having an apprentice with that much knowledge and power.

Anakin/Vader he's got an apprentice he can pretty reliably manage and who is powerful enough, even potentially more powerful. And he keeps him on for lack of a better candidate. I dare say he also likes Anakin just a little bit.

There was genuine affection between Palpatine and Anakin. He's like the son Palpy always wanted. Sure he's an evil manical bastard, but no one whose evil every believes they are. Even Sids needs love...

Finally when Luke comes along he recognizes the danger, from him and Vader who in the end does take the chance to try and redeem himself instead of giving in to darkness. So he's ready to discard Vader for Luke.

By the time of ROTJ there relationship has changed. It seems like the Emperor has gotten tired of Vader, or perhaps Vader has gotten less and less reliable over time. Perhaps he would just prefer a handsome apprentice...or all that mechanical breathing hadfinally started to get on his nerves.

Most likely if Maul hadn't died, Sidious would have had an extensive list of high body count projects to further his agenda and keep his fanatical killing machine occupied.

The original plan may have just called for someone with a lot of political savvy and connections to rise to power among the economic consortiums. Maul would ensure this leader does exactly as Sidious wishes and would use his Sith skills to assasinate rivals and prevent assasination attempts, all the while never suspecting his replacement, the one Jedi he has probably been begging to off - next to Kenobi - for the better part of a decade, is being groomed.

Exactly, who ever Palpatine used to control the Sepratists, did not need to be Sid's apprentice. Any politico will due, its not as though, Dooku actually engage in all the much Sith-like behavior anyway. If need be Sids could always take direct control anyway.

Sidious needed Maul dead. He had outlived his usefulness. Maul wasn't going to set up the clone army and lead the Separatists.

How do you figure? He never intended for Maul to die. Anybody could have done what your suggesting. Foece powers are essential to setting up the clone army and leading the Separatists how, exactly?

Spartan wrote:

Most likely if Maul hadn't died, Sidious would have had an extensive list of high body count projects to further his agenda and keep his fanatical killing machine occupied.

The original plan may have just called for someone with a lot of political savvy and connections to rise to power among the economic consortiums. Maul would ensure this leader does exactly as Sidious wishes and would use his Sith skills to assasinate rivals and prevent assasination attempts, all the while never suspecting his replacement, the one Jedi he has probably been begging to off - next to Kenobi - for the better part of a decade, is being groomed.

Exactly, who ever Palpatine used to control the Sepratists, did not need to be Sid's apprentice. Any politico will due, its not as though, Dooku actually engage in all the much Sith-like behavior anyway. If need be Sids could always take direct control anyway.

Like pre-Padme's-death Anakin, Dooku/Tyrannis was an idealist in Sith's clothing, somebody who genuinely thought he was using the Dark Side for good purposes. He knew what Grievous was doing in his name and he didn't like it, but he went along with it because Lord Sidious said it was going to be okay in the end. Sidious probably never bothered to tell him that he was intending to off the entire Jedi Order.

Iceberg wrote:

Like pre-Padme's-death Anakin, Dooku/Tyrannis was an idealist in Sith's clothing, somebody who genuinely thought he was using the Dark Side for good purposes. He knew what Grievous was doing in his name and he didn't like it, but he went along with it because Lord Sidious said it was going to be okay in the end. Sidious probably never bothered to tell him that he was intending to off the entire Jedi Order.

That makes sense as he assumed that they would convert the Jedi order into a knew Sith empire. It also messes nicely with his forbiding Grevious from killing younglings and padawans, in the SW comics; as they are still young enough and mallable to change.

By the time of ROTJ there relationship has changed. It seems like the Emperor has gotten tired of Vader, or perhaps Vader has gotten less and less reliable over time. Perhaps he would just prefer a handsome apprentice...or all that mechanical breathing hadfinally started to get on his nerves.

The Emperor doesn't have to want to replace him. Palpatine is no doubr aware of the Sith tradition of offing one's Master to take his place. He knows by the time of ANH that Vader is seriously considering it and that Luke will give him the means to really do it, or possibly awaken the good bits of Anakin. No doubt he knows of both and made the considered decision to replace Vader as he became too dangerous.

Spartan wrote:How do you figure? He never intended for Maul to die. Anybody could have done what your suggesting. Foece powers are essential to setting up the clone army and leading the Separatists how, exactly?

1 - We know that as of AotC, Dooku had began putting the clone army together ten years previous. AotC takes place ten years after TPM, ergo Maul couldn't have been dead long before Dooku came on board.

2 - I believe that early in the RotS novelization, it states how Dooku's wealth, title, and standing as a former Jedi Master made him an ideal Separatist leader that even those within the Republic grudgingly respected. Remember, even the Jedi Council was unwilling to suspect the Separatists of attempting to assassinate Padme, due to Dooku being their leader. You don't get that sort of cover when being led by some generic evil banker.

3 - Sidious has a repeatedly observed habit of grooming a new apprentice while the other is still in service, then abruptly trying to have the old one offed.

So yeah, I don't really think Sids just blindly happened to find an apprentice so suited to his needs, at such an opportune time, totally by chance. Maul went goodbye when it was time to get ready for the war, Dooku went goodbye when the war ended, and Vader was supposed to say goodbye as the Rebellion was crushed. Each apprentice lived as long as he was useful, and no longer.

If Sidious suspected Luke might turn Vader back to the Light Side, that's what he would really be afraid of.

Even if Vader and Luke destroy him together, he has the foresight to know that it doesn't really matter.. but only if they're Sith.

Maul is not so mindless as you all think.

True, he was not the mastermind Palpatine (or even Tyranus) was. But he was fairly intelligent, and well trained. The EU story Darth Maul, Shadow Hunter, demonstrates this (though I may be wrong on the name, its been a long time since I read that).

Also, in the same book (which timewise is just prior to TPM), we learn that the mission Maul is sent on is his *first* solo mission. Maul was an Apprentice, not a master. While his combat skills were what Sideous had obviously focused on (or possibly translated over from his pre-Sith life), Maul most likely still only had the level of force control of a Knight. His mastery over the Dark Side would likely have grown to the point where Force Lightning and Choke, as well as all those other nifty abilities, were learnable.

With carefull control, Maul could easily have lead the Seperatists. He just would have needed a competent general (or group of them) to suggest strategic options and handle the tactics of larger battles.

Another thing that should be considered: Maybe Maul did already know Lightning. Not using is not the same as not having, you know. It's possible he was just confident in his saber skills and preferred to deal with Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan that way, rather than with Lightning.

Maul did not have a pre sith life, He was taken by sidious has a small child. Around 4 IIRC.

Interesting...didn't know that. I haven't read much (actually, any other than the afore mentioned) PT EU, so I don't know the backstorys well. I'm just a little irritated that everyone seems to regard Maul as a mindless killing machine.

Destroyer Droids are mindless killing machines. Battle Droids are mindless killing machines (though not terribly effective). Darth Maul is *not* mindless, though he is (arguably) a killing machine. He showed a certain degree of cunning, and a definate ability to apply what he has learned to his current situation.

Please note: I say he is arguably a killing machine because we only ever see him kill Qui-Gonn...he certainly *can* kill pretty much whomever he wants, (like, say, all of Mos Eisley) but he doesn't. A mindless killing machine would likely have slaughtered the entire town because they were there, and because it was frusterated at not killing Qui-Gonn.

Another note: a mindless killing machine would not have held back in the first fight with Qui-Gonn, as I postulate Maul did (in the Sith Saber combat thread).

Kaintukee_Bob wrote:Maul is not so mindless as you all think.With carefull control, Maul could easily have lead the Seperatists. He just would have needed a competent general (or group of them) to suggest strategic options and handle the tactics of larger battles.

Running battles and such isn't what I'm talking about. A wealthy and aristocratic former Jedi Master who quit the Order over a matter of political principle is a superb figurehead. In their arrogance even the Jedi were reluctant to believe he was truly evil. If Sidious could recruit a respected figure capable of standing upon the galactic stage and using his status to his own ends, why keep a shadowy Sith-thug like Maul? Certainly he may have scraped by with Maul, had Dooku not been available, but what did Maul have that would make him preferable to Dooku?

Well, one possible reason to keep Maul is the time already invested. If nothing else, he would have made a usable Emporer's Hand.

I agree, Dooku was a superb figurehead for the Seperatists. Maul would not have been nearly as effective. Indeed, I don't think Maul would have ended up leading them, as his very appearance screams 'EVIL'. Instead Sideous (had Maul survived and not been relegated to Emporer's Hand status) would have likely twisted Dooku (or some other appropriate person, with a whole galaxy to choose from, surely someone else could be found) and convinced him to lead the Seperatists, under Sideous' secret command, of course, without making him an apprentice.

Consider: had the leader of the seperatists *not* been an ex-Jedi, Obi-Wan and Anakin would not have been so eager to use violence to stop him (against the Jedi Code, after all) and would likely have simply attempted to arrest him at the end of AotC. Regardless of wether or not the attempt succeeded, the Seperatist Movement (under the figurehead or a new one) would have continued, and Palpatine's plan would have worked.

This is straying from the thread's topic though. I agree fully that your argument is valid: Dooku is a far superior Seperatist leader and figurehead than Maul would have been. However, the Seperatist figurehead not being a Sith would not have impacted Palpatine's plan in any significant way, so I doubt he would have killed Maul off on purpose. His original plan may well have been to recruit a worthy figurehead and give him an 'advisor' and 'bodyguard' called Darth Maul.

Well, one possible reason to keep Maul is the time already invested. If nothing else, he would have made a usable Emporer's Hand.

Palpatine is nothing if not a patient man, willing to invest the time needed into each stage of his master plan. No Sith would accept such a demotion anyway. Had Maul somehow survived to the point of Anakin's turning, he would have challenged the new Lord Vader and died.

with a whole galaxy to choose from, surely someone else could be found) and convinced him to lead the Seperatists, under Sideous' secret command, of course, without making him an apprentice.

He could have, but why would he? Dooku is both more politically useful AND more powerful, capable of defeating Anakin and Obi-Wan, and fighting Yoda to a standstill. Given the fact that Sidious had chosen both Anakin and Luke as apprentices even before their predecessors were gone, why is it so hard to believe he'd deliberately ditch a skilled but one-dimensional apprentice like Maul for an influential and powerful ex-Jedi Master?

Consider: had the leader of the seperatists *not* been an ex-Jedi, Obi-Wan and Anakin would not have been so eager to use violence to stop him (against the Jedi Code, after all) and would likely have simply attempted to arrest him at the end of AotC.

And succeeded, unless you think some generic evil banker from the Trade Federation (or for that matter, his bodyguard Maul) was going to fight his way past Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda.

Regardless of wether or not the attempt succeeded, the Seperatist Movement (under the figurehead or a new one) would have continued, and Palpatine's plan would have worked.

Having his leadership figure arrested at the opening of the war would not have been helpful to Sidious.

This is straying from the thread's topic though. I agree fully that your argument is valid: Dooku is a far superior Seperatist leader and figurehead than Maul would have been.

Ergo, offing Maul in favor of Dooku was a wise move. Maybe Sidious didn't plan on Maul dying on Naboo, but had he lived, he would likely have met the end of Dooku's blade soon anyway.

However, the Seperatist figurehead not being a Sith would not have impacted Palpatine's plan in any significant way, so I doubt he would have killed Maul off on purpose.

Yes it would have an impact, in that he would have missed out on a "far superior" Separatist leader, as per your words.