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In order of film:

1. Slaughter of a Tusken Raider village, down to the last man, woman and child (AotC);

2. Killing several Geonosians (AotC);

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

4. Murder of many Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters (RotS);

5. Murder of the entire Separatist Council;

6. Murder of Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV (ANH);

7. Killing of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master (ANH);

8. Shot down Gold Two, Gold Leader (Tiree, Dutch) Gold Five, Red Twelve, Red Ten, Red Leader, and Red Three (Biggs Darklighter) (ANH); and

9. Summary execution of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa (TESB).

Have I missed any? Which of these would you consider crimes?

Some of those are not crimes (e.g. the attack on the deathstar) they attacked a base he was on attempting to destroy it and him along with it. That’s self defence.

Vympel wrote:In order of film:

1. Slaughter of a Tusken Raider village, down to the last man, woman and child (AotC);

Crime

2. Killing several Geonosians (AotC);

Not Crime

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

Definitely a war crime

4. Murder of many Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters (RotS);

This is his worst crime by far.

5. Murder of the entire Separatist Council;

War crime

6. Murder of Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV (ANH);

War crime

7. Killing of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master (ANH);

Unclear, but probably a crime

8. Shot down Gold Two, Gold Leader (Tiree, Dutch) Gold Five, Red Twelve, Red Ten, Red Leader, and Red Three (Biggs Darklighter) (ANH); and

Not a crime; he killed them in battle.

9. Summary execution of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa (TESB).

Crime.
Have I missed any? Which of these would you consider crimes?[/quote]

1. Technically a crime, though doubtful to be thought of as one in the Star Wars universe.

2. Not a crime, they were in combat.

3. Definitely a crime, though the only one who knows the details is Palpatine

4. Arguably the worst of his crimes.

5. Not a crime in the sense that they were technically the opposition during a war, but since some were trying to surrender/begging for mercy you could argue that some of their deaths were.

6. Definitely a crime

7. Not a crime. An armed civilian onboard a military installation? Yeah, if they don't surrender and in fact pull out a weapon, you kill people that do that.

8. Not a crime either. Rebel(or terrorists in the Empires eyes) attacking a military installation? Regardless of what the installation is meant for he's legally in the right here. Would we have been surprised if someone was killed trying to destroy a Russian nuclear missile silo during the Cold War?

9. Arguably not a crime. In the Imperial Fleet, failure and incompetance is punishable by death and it's implied that Ozzel showed these on more than one occasion.

Have I missed any? Which of these would you consider crimes?

Captain Needa. While not a technically a crime, it's a shame that Needa was killed, because his failure was more from bad luck than anything else.

Accessory to the destruction of Alderaan tops the list. Tarkin may have given the order, but he stood by for it.

I will assume we are using our laws to judge this.

1. Slaughter of a Tusken Raider village, down to the last man, woman and child (AotC);

Crime)

Depends on there society would the women and children attempted to stop him leaving

2. Killing several Geonosians (AotC);

Not Crime

Correct

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

Definitely a war crime);

Depends of weather a sith can shoot lighting and Tk with out hands is so he was hardly unarmed. Also he was under orders (from palps) and under the Geneva Convention solders under orders MAY be excused the responsibility.

4. Murder of many Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters (RotS);

This is his worst crime by far.

No question there. However the Jedi were involved in an illegal take over from the elected government still no reason to kill the children though.

5. Murder of the entire Separatist Council;

War crime

Again he was under order and the Geneva Convention may excuse him.

6. Murder of Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV (ANH);

War crime);

That was a direct threat to national securty and under the 9/11 terror laws could be ok.

7. Killing of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master (ANH);

Unclear, but probably a crime

The both drew weapons and proceeded to attack each other. That means that both were at fault. There was also a previous time Obi-wan attacked Anakin. This could be considering pre-emptive self defence.

8. Shot down Gold Two, Gold Leader (Tiree, Dutch) Gold Five, Red Twelve, Red Ten, Red Leader, and Red Three (Biggs Darklighter) (ANH); and

Not a crime; he killed them in battle.

Agreaed

9. Summary execution of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa (TESB).

Crime.

He was a traitor in a military operation execution is an option.

Have I missed any? Which of these would you consider crimes?

IMO most could be exused under our laws.

If you're counting the Rebels he killed in combat during the Death Star run, then you should probably count the neimodians he killed at the tender age of nine when he blew up their battle station.

I'm also assuming there'd be random sepratists that he killed during the Clone Wars (although less than would normally be expected as the sepratists had the droid army), and also possibly members of various alien species that he killed after entering into "aggressive negotiations" while on Jedi business.

As for whether they are crimes or not:

1. Slaughter of a Tusken Raider village, down to the last man, woman and child (AotC);

A moral crime, certainly, however it could be entirely legal on Tatooine; it is a pretty crappy planet that way. I'll put it in the crime basket.

2. Killing several Geonosians (AotC);

Not a crime: it was a case of self-defence.

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

Another grey one. It was probably immoral, but not precisely a crime.

4. Murder of many Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters (RotS);

Crime. Crime. Crime. Crime. Crime. He killed Younglings!

5. Murder of the entire Separatist Council;

A crime. The murder was not necessary, and was only ordered because the Emperor needed to cover his tracks.

6. Murder of Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV (ANH);

I'd call this a crime, although it's probably only because he pre-empted the court process that would have seen Captain Antilles executed for treason anyway.

7. Killing of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master (ANH);

Probably not a crime, seeing as they were fighting a duel at the time (which was freely entered into by Obi-wan)

8. Shot down Gold Two, Gold Leader (Tiree, Dutch) Gold Five, Red Twelve, Red Ten, Red Leader, and Red Three (Biggs Darklighter) (ANH);

Not a crime. They were shot in battle. It does not matter who is right in the grand scheme of the war when it comes to judgement of the morality of killing each other in a fight.

and

9. Summary execution of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa (TESB).

Morally wrong, however I do not doubt that he had the legal authority to do so...

As for the instances that I suggested:

9. Neimodians in the battlestation.

Not a crime: it was during a battle. See no 8.

10. Random aliens that may have been killed during "agressive negotiations".

I'd call this a crime. Or not.. it would depend on the circumstances in which they entered into the "aggressive negotiations".

11. Random separatists killed in battle during the Clone Wars.

Not a crime, see no 8.

You're not counting Alderaan are you? Vader probably had the power to stop it, so he could be held accountable despite the fact that it was Tarkin who ordered its destruction.

Ooh my! I just realised that we completely missed one:

12. Murder of the Emperor.

Now, whether this is a crime or not depends entirely on your point of view. I'm inclined to view it as a crime, but then again, I am somewhat pro-emperor because he has ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!! It's probably not a crime though, because apparently the Emperor's evil , and allowing him to live would have meant that Luke would die and so would lots of other people...

Now, whether this is a crime or not depends entirely on your point of view. I'm inclined to view it as a crime, but then again, I am somewhat pro-emperor because he has ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!! It's probably not a crime though, because apparently the Emperor's evil , and allowing him to live would have meant that Luke would die and so would lots of other people...

He was defending lukes life. Not a crime.

4, 5, 6 & 9 most definately.

I would include 1 just because there was no reason for him to kill all of the Sand People who had captured his mother. If he wasn't just in a rage then only killing those who attacked him or tried to prevent him from leaving with his mother's body would have been sufficient. In the long run sparing some of tribe might have been more useful to human/raider relations than just wiping them out.


2. Killing a couple of the Geonosians while Anakin and Padame were sneaking into the factory always kind of bothered me. A couple of those guys didn't look armed. I would have thought a skilled Jedi Padawan would be able to take them out quietly and not lethally. After they start coming after them hard then I'd say they are fair game but since no one was at war yet I think he was little quick to carve them up.

3. While Anakin did kill a prisoner I don't see how he was going to keep Count Dooku as a prisoner and get off the ship with Palpatine and Obi-Wan with Dooku in tow as a prisoner. Dooku was just too danerous, even without hands. I think it's distastful that he disarmed Dooku and thought about it awhile before killing him but it was probably a valid choice given the situation and that Dooku was the leader of the opposition. It certainly would have been a bad idea to just leave him behind after maiming him. Considering how much Dooku hated prosthetics I think he'd have loads of anger to power him if he had to get some himself (plus he wouldn't be able to do that Sith lightning thing anymore).

4. Killing Obi-Wan. I would assume it was part of Vader's job to kill any and all Jedi or wanna-bees he came across. He probably could have kept Obi-Wan busy enough for reinforcements to show up so they could help Vader take Kenobi prisoner but I don't know if I see Obi-Wan allowing that. There's too much chance that as a prisoner Obi-Wan might give up information about the DS Plans, Luke, Leia, or Yoda. So, I don't think Vader had to kill him but Obi-Wan was actively defending himself/resisting (not that I remember him being given a choice). Coming from Vader's viewpoint, the guy cut off my arm and legs and left me to burn. He might have been banging my wife (I think). I don't think I'd be trying to arrest him either.

8. Those he shot down in defending his post I don't have a problem with. It could be argued that just being part of the Empire and protecting something as horrible as the Death Star makes this a moral crime too but I doubt the Rebels would try for war crimes any run of the mill Tie-fighter pilot who had done the same.



By they way, you could probably add Assisted in the torture and questioning of Princess Leia on the Death Star. Had Han Solo, Chewbacca and Princess Leia tortured as bait for Luke on Cloud City.


In the EU what was it that he was hated by the Faleen for? It looked to me like he contained a potentially gargantuan disaster by doing something really awful but I always got the impression it was either the city or the planet and he chose to whipe out the city (or something like that). Now, since he was overseeing the project to begin with I think he's responsible for the fact that something went that horribly wrong in the first place. So while he made the right choice in wasting the city I think he made some bad choices that led to him having to choose to destroy the city.

ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!!!!

Didn´t he say "UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

Glimmervoid wrote:

Now, whether this is a crime or not depends entirely on your point of view. I'm inclined to view it as a crime, but then again, I am somewhat pro-emperor because he has ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!! It's probably not a crime though, because apparently the Emperor's evil , and allowing him to live would have meant that Luke would die and so would lots of other people...

He was defending lukes life. Not a crime.

On the other hand it's Treason, and doesn't that trump all crimes?

VT-16 wrote:

ULTIMATE POWER!!!!!!!!

Didn´t he say "UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

Who said I was quoting???

Glimmervoid wrote:

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

Definitely a war crime);

Depends of weather a sith can shoot lighting and Tk with out hands is so he was hardly unarmed. Also he was under orders (from palps) and under the Geneva Convention solders under orders MAY be excused the responsibility.

As Anakin had cut off Dooku's hands, Dooku was in fact "disarmed"

He also brutally tortured Leia, and allowed a known criminal (Boba Fett) to torture and kidnap Han Solo, a crime he was a full accomplace in if not a direct perpatrator.

No matter what laws anyone uses, the fact that he murdered some dozens or hundreds of children at the Temple is not defensible.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:He also brutally tortured Leia, and allowed a known criminal (Boba Fett) to torture and kidnap Han Solo, a crime he was a full accomplace in if not a direct perpatrator.

No matter what laws anyone uses, the fact that he murdered some dozens or hundreds of children at the Temple is not defensible.

Leia was a threat to national security and under the 9/11 terror laws i could be deemed ok(i am using our laws because the only other laws we could use would be the empires and then he can do no wrong).

About hte temple massica as I have said before the Geneva convention means solders under orders(which he was) may be deemed innocent.

I seriously dont beleive that any convention or laws say i could murder hundreds of children in cold blood because my commander told me to. Jedi, yes arguably, however backstabbing it was. But not children.

And this assumes that teh Empire has fallen, remember, so it'd be more like 'threat to national security'...of the Third Reich like, see? Or am i wrong there?

Vympel wrote:In order of film:

1. Slaughter of a Tusken Raider village, down to the last man, woman and child (AotC);

Crime, but woah unto the DA who tries to prosecute a Jedi Knight in a Tatooine judicial body for killing Tusken Raiders.

2. Killing several Geonosians (AotC);

The crime here is trespassing, probably B&E, etc. His actions were really self-defense, since the Geonosians were attacking him. He would probably be acquitted, since he was attempting to rescue a fellow Jedi who he had reason to suspect was in imminent danger, so it wouldn't be prosecuted even if there was a technical violation.

3. Murder of Count Dooku, an unarmed prisoner (RotS);

Clearly a war crime. Even though Dooku hadn't formally surrendered, he was clearly incapable of offering further resistance and as such should have enjoyed protected status.

4. Murder of many Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters (RotS);

Clearly a war crime--especially the slaying of the younglings who were clearly non-combatants.

5. Murder of the entire Separatist Council;

Clearly a war crime. Many of them attempted to surrender and then were cut down. So far as I can tell in that scene, no member of the actual Separatist Council was armed (though they had guards), and so should have enjoyed protected status.

6. Murder of Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV (ANH);

Clearly a war crime. Captain Antilles surrendered before he was killed, even if you buy the argument that the action against the ship was a legitimate military action.

7. Killing of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master (ANH);

Not a crime. Kenobi had boarded his station and sought him out specifically to fight him. Kenobi had not clearly surrendered, and was still in possession of the ability to use deadly force against Vader or against other Death Star personnel. Kenobi had also sabotaged the Death Star.

8. Shot down Gold Two, Gold Leader (Tiree, Dutch) Gold Five, Red Twelve, Red Ten, Red Leader, and Red Three (Biggs Darklighter) (ANH); and

Clearly not a crime. He was engaged in a defensive action against ships that were attempting to destroy the Death Star.

9. Summary execution of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa (TESB).

Clearly a crime, although Admiral Ozzel certainly deserved disciplinary action for his incompetence and Needa potentially did.

Quick question: Does any of this change the fact Darth Vader is still the best villian?

18-Till-I-Die wrote:I seriously dont beleive that any convention or laws say i could murder hundreds of children in cold blood because my commander told me to. Jedi, yes arguably, however backstabbing it was. But not children.

And this assumes that teh Empire has fallen, remember, so it'd be more like 'threat to national security'...of the Third Reich like, see? Or am i wrong there?

Anikins life would have been lost if he did not obey that means the Geneva Convention says his actions may be excused. That is what the law say you not believing it dose not make any difference.

As to threat to nation security I mean that he had information pointing to her being involved in planning an act of terrorism against the current administration (the deathstar attack) this is exactly what the anti terror laws are there to allow. I don’t like them but it means by our standard the torture of leai and the death last attempting to get information of the captain are not illegal.

Robert Walper wrote:Quick question: Does any of this change the fact Darth Vader is still the best villian?

No! Are you insane?

Robert Walper wrote:Quick question: Does any of this change the fact Darth Vader is still the best villian?

Don't be ridiculous. Palpatine's a far better villain than Vader.

Better-looking too.

Clearly a war crime. Even though Dooku hadn't formally surrendered, he was clearly incapable of offering further resistance and as such should have enjoyed protected status.

And again it comes down to whether Sith and Jedi can ever be fully disarmed. I would say that there was no way that Anakin could fully remove the threat of Count Dooku; certainly any escape attempt with him would likely give Dooku time to recover. It was hienous but there was really little he could do save leave him or kill him.

Clearly a war crime. Many of them attempted to surrender and then were cut down. So far as I can tell in that scene, no member of the actual Separatist Council was armed (though they had guards), and so should have enjoyed protected status.

Summary execution of traitors on the authority of the executive head of the Republic. It's nasty, morally repugnant yes. A war crime, quite probably not.

Clearly a war crime. Captain Antilles surrendered before he was killed, even if you buy the argument that the action against the ship was a legitimate military action.

Summary execution of a traitor.

Clearly a crime, although Admiral Ozzel certainly deserved disciplinary action for his incompetence and Needa potentially did.

Summary execution for gross incompetence. A crime by todays standards but in a lot of militaries past and present it would be fully expected. Certainly it's justified as both botched their responsibilities and potentially cost lives.

Stormbringer wrote:

Clearly a war crime. Even though Dooku hadn't formally surrendered, he was clearly incapable of offering further resistance and as such should have enjoyed protected status.

I think we have to use our laws not there’s otherwise Vader could never do anything wrong.

In all but one example of vardars crimes (the sand people) he was under orders and his life would be forfeit if he disobeyed (it dose not make it right but executable maybe) and in the others he was working with the rule of our rules (killing in war) or with in our own anti terror laws.

Re: #7

Didn't Obi-Wan become One With The Force BEFORE Vader's saber made contact with him?

Xisiqomelir wrote:Re: #7

Didn't Obi-Wan become One With The Force BEFORE Vader's saber made contact with him?

Yes you are right he started to disapear before the lightsaber made contact.