StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:18pm**

They both could have been properly trained from birth as Jedi, rather than basically wasting their formative years by letting the Larses and Organas raise them.

Surely the combined might of two powerful Jedi Masters and the fully-trained twin offspring of the Chosen One would have been more than a match for Vader and the Emperor, no?

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:20pm**

The first time Obi-Wan tried raising someone, we ended up with Darth Vader.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:21pm**

Because they know that the old ways just aren't working. Furthermore, after what happened with Anakin Obi-Wan probably wouldn't have trusted himself to raise a goldfish, and Yoda probably doesn't have the experiences necessary to raise a human child by himself.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:23pm**

Actually Yoda goes into this in the novel.

He tells Obi-Wan that what they thought fucked things over and ultimately produced Anakin...so with these two, let them grow up and then when the time is right, train them.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:23pm**

Could imagine explaining that to your friends? I mean, having two dads would have people stare at you funny, but a short green guy who speaks backwards and a baseline human? Those kids would be a laughing stock.

Anywho, it would increase the chances of one of the youngsters surviving. Two potent jedi's kicking around with the heirs of Anakin? They'd stand out and the Empire would be all over them. Placing the kids in the care of non-jedis that had, realatively, no relation to anakin meant that no one would suspect who the kids were and they could grow up until whatever was being planned for them was ready to be enacted.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:24pm**

plus, if vader ever found Obi-Wan or yoda, and they had the kids, they would *all* get killed. at least with them separated until the kids were grown, they had a better chance at survival.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:30pm**

Obi-Wan took over Anakin's training when he was still a Padawan himself. Older, more experienced Obi-Wan should have been far more qualified, esepcially if he and Yoda had raised the two children together.

Yoda had trained Jedi for over 800 years. Whatever deficiencies Obi-Wan may have still had at that point, Yoda should have more than made up for.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:34pm**

Galvatron wrote:Obi-Wan took over Anakin's training when he was still a Padawan himself. Older, more experienced Obi-Wan should have been far more qualified, esepcially if he and Yoda had raised the two children together.

Yoda had trained Jedi for over 800 years. Whatever deficiencies Obi-Wan may have still had at that point, Yoda should have more than made up for.

But he did not take on a single apprentice and raise him from childhood. When you see him in the Jedi Temple, it appears that he's more like a professor. The younglings get education sessions with him but each of them grows in the care of somebody else.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:35pm**

Chardok wrote:plus, if vader ever found Obi-Wan or yoda, and they had the kids, they would *all* get killed. at least with them separated until the kids were grown, they had a better chance at survival.

Survival? Wasn't victory their ultimate goal? If the Skywalker children represented their last hope of defeating the Sith, it seems to me they stood a better chance of overcoming the odds together rather than separately.

Actually Yoda goes into this in the novel.

He tells Obi-Wan that what they thought fucked things over and ultimately produced Anakin...so with these two, let them grow up and then when the time is right, train them.

And that conflicts with Yoda's comments in TESB, that Luke was too old to begin the training at that point.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:38pm**

Galvatron wrote:
Chardok wrote:plus, if vader ever found Obi-Wan or yoda, and they had the kids, they would *all* get killed. at least with them separated until the kids were grown, they had a better chance at survival.
Survival? Wasn't victory their ultimate goal? If the Skywalker children represented their last hope of defeating the Sith, it seems to me they stood a better chance of overcoming the odds together rather than separately.

The Sith went underground for thousands of years in order to defeat the Jedi. Obviously, survival is the ultimate goal. Who says they need to plan for winning right now, with this current generation?

Actually Yoda goes into this in the novel.

He tells Obi-Wan that what they thought fucked things over and ultimately produced Anakin...so with these two, let them grow up and then when the time is right, train them.
And that conflicts with Yoda's comments in TESB, that Luke was too old to begin the training.

He can't change his mind in 20 years? He can't realize that perhaps Luke is too reckless and might get himself killed rather than simply keeping the Jedi Order alive in hiding until the time is right to strike back?

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:40pm**

Wasn't Yoda's padawan Dooku?

If so, that means both of them raised padawans that ended up turning to the dark side. Not a very good track record.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:44pm**

Galvatron wrote:
Actually Yoda goes into this in the novel.

He tells Obi-Wan that what they thought fucked things over and ultimately produced Anakin...so with these two, let them grow up and then when the time is right, train them.
And that conflicts with Yoda's comments in TESB, that Luke was too old to begin the training at that point.

Could be a test for Luke to see how much does he want it. So fr the novels don't contradict since the ESB novel is rather light and given to interpretaion while the RoTS novel is quite intimate that Yoda goes into it.

The passage if wondering

page 412 wrote:
"We should split them up," Obi Wan said. "Even if a Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy, Master Yoda, and you take the girl. We can hide them, keep them safe--train them as Anakin should have been trained----"

"No." The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin that were folded over the head of his stick.

Obi Wan looked uncertain. "But how are they to learn the self discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?"

"Jedi training, the sole source of self discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn."

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:54pm**

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Wasn't Yoda's padawan Dooku?

If so, that means both of them raised padawans that ended up turning to the dark side. Not a very good track record.

Actually, it all goes back to Yoda. He was Dooku's master, who was Qui-Gon's master, who was Obi-Wan's master, who was Anakin's master.

Then again, Yoda trained Jedi successfully for some 800 years before losing one to the dark side. It wasn't until Sidious appeared on the scene that things went to shit. And if the Skywalker children were kept isolated from his influence, what happened to Dooku and Anakin couldn't happen to them.

"We should split them up," Obi Wan said. "Even if a Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy, Master Yoda, and you take the girl. We can hide them, keep them safe--train them as Anakin should have been trained----"

"No." The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin that were folded over the head of his stick.

Obi Wan looked uncertain. "But how are they to learn the self discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?"

"Jedi training, the sole source of self discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn."

Okay, that sheds some light on it. I should have just asked for someone to quote the novelization in the first place.

Posted: **2005-05-24 08:58pm**

Galvatron wrote:Then again, Yoda trained Jedi successfully for some 800 years before losing one to the dark side. It wasn't until Sidious appeared on the scene that things went to shit. And if the Skywalker children were kept isolated from his influence, what happened to Dooku and Anakin couldn't happen to them.

Yoda comes to the realisation that the Jedi Order had grown stagnant and hopeless in the intervening years since the last Sith war. The Sith grew and evolved, while the Jedi were busy preparing for a war that was fought a 1000 years ago. Yoda knew he couldn't win against the Emperor, and even Obi-wan couldn't kill Anakin (though not from lack of trying).

If they had trained Luke and Leia from birth they would have repeated the same mistakes. What Luke and Leia needed was a life that had some normalcy to it. The Jedi way was flawed.

Posted: **2005-05-24 09:06pm**

Stofsk wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Then again, Yoda trained Jedi successfully for some 800 years before losing one to the dark side. It wasn't until Sidious appeared on the scene that things went to shit. And if the Skywalker children were kept isolated from his influence, what happened to Dooku and Anakin couldn't happen to them.
Yoda comes to the realisation that the Jedi Order had grown stagnant and hopeless in the intervening years since the last Sith war. The Sith grew and evolved, while the Jedi were busy preparing for a war that was fought a 1000 years ago. Yoda knew he couldn't win against the Emperor, and even Obi-wan couldn't kill Anakin (though not from lack of trying).

If they had trained Luke and Leia from birth they would have repeated the same mistakes. What Luke and Leia needed was a life that had some normalcy to it. The Jedi way was flawed.

Yoda had already seen the flaws. Remember his comments about that in AotC? He might have his flaws but he's also a lot sharper than that. He knew the faults and pitfalls.

So I don't find it at all suprising that he's the one to suggest not repeating the same mistakes. Plus allowing for a better chance of survival. I mean Anakin wiped out kids by the job lot, his own blood might be fair game. And for the Emperor they sure would be.

Posted: **2005-05-24 11:00pm**

That was a huge difference between the New Order and the Old. Luke allowed his disciples to have relatively normal lives (though there was always one of them turning to the dark side...every other week or so). This (purely conjecture) made the good Jedi better, and showed who would be more likely to turn.

Posted: **2005-05-24 11:11pm**

wolveraptor wrote:That was a huge difference between the New Order and the Old. Luke allowed his disciples to have relatively normal lives (though there was always one of them turning to the dark side...every other week or so).

Part of that is because for most of the EU, Luke was a 'tard. People blast Stackpole for having Corran rip on Luke, but Luke was pretty damn dumb. It should have been obvious.

Posted: **2005-05-24 11:42pm**

Stormbringer wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:That was a huge difference between the New Order and the Old. Luke allowed his disciples to have relatively normal lives (though there was always one of them turning to the dark side...every other week or so).
Part of that is because for most of the EU, Luke was a 'tard. People blast Stackpole for having Corran rip on Luke, but Luke was pretty damn dumb. It should have been obvious.

I never really saw LUke as being that way, except during the Academy trilogy and Darksaber (and that can be chalked up to KJA.)

Posted: **2005-05-25 12:49am**

Galvatron wrote:And that conflicts with Yoda's comments in TESB, that Luke was too old to begin the training at that point.

He was obviously just gauging Luke's determination. That's how I read the scene when I was 8 years old, and that's how I read it now.

Here's something interesting though. In TESB, Obi-Wan makes it seem as if he doesn't know about Leia at all. He says, "That boy is our only hope," and then Yoda says, "No, there is another," as if it's a big secret that Obi-Wan doesn't know. Wouldn't he have said, "What about Leia, you retard?" or something like that?

Posted: **2005-05-25 12:50am**

The only thing I can think of is that Obi Wan didn't think Leia was force sensitive. Or that she wasn't powerful enough to go against Vader in the way Luke could.

Posted: **2005-05-25 01:02am**

Durandal wrote:
Galvatron wrote:And that conflicts with Yoda's comments in TESB, that Luke was too old to begin the training at that point.
He was obviously just gauging Luke's determination. That's how I read the scene when I was 8 years old, and that's how I read it now.

Here's something interesting though. In TESB, Obi-Wan makes it seem as if he doesn't know about Leia at all. He says, "That boy is our only hope," and then Yoda says, "No, there is another," as if it's a big secret that Obi-Wan doesn't know. Wouldn't he have said, "What about Leia, you retard?" or something like that?

Yeah, I half expected the twins to be born on Dagobah (explaining Luke's familiarity with the place) followed by Yoda turning Luke over to Obi-Wan, but never even telling him that Padme had another child.

Afterall, what Obi-Wan didn't know couldn't be extracted from his thoughts somehow.

Yoda would have then finally told Obi-Wan about Leia off-screen in TESB after his "no, there is another" line.

Posted: **2005-05-25 06:42am**

Stormbringer wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:That was a huge difference between the New Order and the Old. Luke allowed his disciples to have relatively normal lives (though there was always one of them turning to the dark side...every other week or so).
Part of that is because for most of the EU, Luke was a 'tard. People blast Stackpole for having Corran rip on Luke, but Luke was pretty damn dumb. It should have been obvious.

Moreover, Mara pointed the same thing out to Luke in Hand of Thrawn. Can't remember offhand whether she did it in Spectre or Vision.

Posted: **2005-05-25 07:24am**

Iceberg wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:That was a huge difference between the New Order and the Old. Luke allowed his disciples to have relatively normal lives (though there was always one of them turning to the dark side...every other week or so).
Part of that is because for most of the EU, Luke was a 'tard. People blast Stackpole for having Corran rip on Luke, but Luke was pretty damn dumb. It should have been obvious.
Moreover, Mara pointed the same thing out to Luke in Hand of Thrawn. Can't remember offhand whether she did it in Spectre or Vision.

VIson i think, when they're sitting in the cave and she blasts him for unilaterally declaring himself a master and other shit.

Posted: **2005-05-25 07:29am**

Vision it is. Also, I agree with their comments, Luke wasn't the best teacher, but also let the Jedi Order be Jedi's as a part of normal beings, not just A Jedi.

Posted: **2005-05-25 08:18am**

The Spartan wrote:The only thing I can think of is that Obi Wan didn't think Leia was force sensitive. Or that she wasn't powerful enough to go against Vader in the way Luke could.

Except that in the quote Ghostrider posted Obi-Wan seems to wish for both of them to be trained as Jedi.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan raise Luke and Leia themselves?

Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan raise Luke and Leia themselves?