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Did anyone else get the impression that Windu was starting on his own path towards the dark side? First he wants to overthrow the legitimate government, which Yoda states leads to a dark place. Then he seems to have no qualms about killing the Emperor, even before he realises that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He was just a little too anxious to commit "treason" it seems. And if you go by the EU, he's been flirting with the Dark for a while now.

Plus, he was a world-class asshole.

It seemed like he was getting a more subtle, believable transformation to the darkside than Hayden Christiansen's character--it just got interrupted by his untimely death.

So, suppose he managed to kill Palpatine. Suppose Anakin doesn't show up to chop his arm off, or if he does show up, he helps Windu. Now, Windu has direct control of the Galaxy in order to "ease" the transition. Do any of you see him giving the government back to the people?

Suppose he goes through the Emperor's things and finds out about Order 66 or some Sith teachings that could make Vapaad so much more badass. Would Mace be able to pass up the temptation?

Or would he eventually become a Sith himself?

Yoda would then try and stop him. But in doing so go dark him self (because he would be more emotionally involved fighting a friend). And we would end up with emperor Yoda.

That would be so funny seeing him on the throne in ROTJ.

"The power of the Dark Side, you underestimate. Now, die, you will, young Jedi."

That would definitely be funny. Emperor Yoda: The most dangerous person in the Galaxy and he doesn't even come up to his opponent's knees.

Mace, I think, is one of those Jedi who spends his life toeing the edge without falling.

Glimmervoid wrote:Yoda would then try and stop him. But in doing so go dark him self (because he would be more emotionally involved fighting a friend). And we would end up with emperor Yoda.

That would be so funny seeing him on the throne in ROTJ.

WTF? How the hell would Yoda become darkside just because Mace Windu would? There is no basis for such an assertion. More likely either Yoda beats Windu, or things would have played out like in the classic trilogy with Windu replacing Palpatine or Anakin betrays him early and either redeems himself or replaces Palpatine. Yoda has no reason to fall from grace.

OT: Well, he was skirting around the edge there, so maybe.

<Anakin> Mace, you know what they call a Big Mac on Corellia?
<Emperor Mace> No, what?
<Anakin> They call it, 'Le Big Mac.'
*Emperor Mace bitch-slaps Anakin with Force Lightning*

True, Mace was a bit too eager to stage his coup. Whether or not his intentions were noble to begin with, once he removed Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, then what? He clearly didn't think the Senate was capable of making proper decisions either, since they gave the Chancellor so much executive power.

I figure from his point of view, the only recourse would be to temporarily take control of the Republic's reins until he believes the Senate is of sound mind again... however long it takes.

<Mace Windu> UNLIMITED POWER!!!!11 D:<

Glimmervoid wrote:That would be so funny seeing him on the throne in ROTJ.

Haha the thought of the little guy sitting in the huge high-backed throne with his feet hanging off the edge is hilarious.

Iceberg wrote:<Anakin> Mace, you know what they call a Big Mac on Corellia?
<Emperor Mace> No, what?
<Anakin> They call it, 'Le Big Mac.'
*Emperor Mace bitch-slaps Anakin with Force Lightning*

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Did anyone else get the impression that Windu was starting on his own path towards the dark side? First he wants to overthrow the legitimate government, which Yoda states leads to a dark place. Then he seems to have no qualms about killing the Emperor, even before he realises that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He was just a little too anxious to commit "treason" it seems. And if you go by the EU, he's been flirting with the Dark for a while now.

Plus, he was a world-class asshole.

I call bullshit. Mace nor the council never said anything about killing Palpatine before they discovered Palpatine was Sith.
They did talk about the possibility to need to remove him from office, but that does not equal killing him.

Glimmervoid wrote:Yoda would then try and stop him. But in doing so go dark him self (because he would be more emotionally involved fighting a friend). And we would end up with emperor Yoda.

That would be so funny seeing him on the throne in ROTJ.

No. There was some EU thing that stated that, in terms of combat skills, only Yoda and some other Jedi beat Windu in practice fighting. Yoda can handle Windu. Moreover, Yoda won't turn to the Dark Side . . . he's much too good at keeping his cool. Besides, what situation would be more likely to make him turn? Facing the Sith Lord who successfully ordered the extermination of Yoda's entire Jedi Order, including all his drinking buddies? Or a powerful, yet overzealous underling?

Iceberg wrote:<Anakin> Mace, you know what they call a Big Mac on Corellia?
<Emperor Mace> No, what?
<Anakin> They call it, 'Le Big Mac.'
*Emperor Mace bitch-slaps Anakin with Force Lightning*

GODDAMN... is there even a FUQ thread anymore? That deserves to be in it!

Death from the Sea wrote:

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Did anyone else get the impression that Windu was starting on his own path towards the dark side? First he wants to overthrow the legitimate government, which Yoda states leads to a dark place. Then he seems to have no qualms about killing the Emperor, even before he realises that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He was just a little too anxious to commit "treason" it seems. And if you go by the EU, he's been flirting with the Dark for a while now.

Plus, he was a world-class asshole.

I call bullshit. Mace nor the council never said anything about killing Palpatine before they discovered Palpatine was Sith.
They did talk about the possibility to need to remove him from office, but that does not equal killing him.

Don't forget that Mace claims that Palpatine owns the courts and the senate. He clearly came to this conclusion before finding out that Palpatine was a Sith Lord--notice he didn't decide to change his strategy or even ask if that changes things. From what I saw, he never intended to let Palpatine have a fair trial.

Granted, he may have been planning to throw him in a jail somewhere or control him directly through the Force. But those would both earn him dark side points as well as solidifying his Leninist/revolutionary tendencies even without the bloodshed.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Did anyone else get the impression that Windu was starting on his own path towards the dark side? First he wants to overthrow the legitimate government, which Yoda states leads to a dark place. Then he seems to have no qualms about killing the Emperor, even before he realises that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He was just a little too anxious to commit "treason" it seems. And if you go by the EU, he's been flirting with the Dark for a while now.

Plus, he was a world-class asshole.

It seemed like he was getting a more subtle, believable transformation to the darkside than Hayden Christiansen's character--it just got interrupted by his untimely death.

So, suppose he managed to kill Palpatine. Suppose Anakin doesn't show up to chop his arm off, or if he does show up, he helps Windu. Now, Windu has direct control of the Galaxy in order to "ease" the transition. Do any of you see him giving the government back to the people?

Suppose he goes through the Emperor's things and finds out about Order 66 or some Sith teachings that could make Vapaad so much more badass. Would Mace be able to pass up the temptation?

Or would he eventually become a Sith himself?

Why would Anakin help him if he showed up? Anakin's more likely to try to kill Windu for killing the one man who could (in his eyes) help him avert Padme's death? Chances are, Anakin would go psycho Dark Side rage on Windu. Though Windu's got the power to beat Anakin, he doesn't have the psychological edge that Obi Wan had. Though, killing that Skywalker brat that he never liked anyway would push him further to the Dark Side. Of course, at that point, he'd have two murders to cover up.

If he goes through Palpatine's files, he'll discover that Palpatine was setting him up. If he keeps the Sith stuff to himself, he can use the rest to his advantage. With a bit of editing to the security video, he could claim that he killed Palpatine and Anakin in self-defense. After all, the witnesses are all conveniently dead. He could also announce that he found Order 66 while searching through Palpatine's files.

Of course, with Palpatine gone, the clouding of the Force that he was doing would go with him. It's likely that Yoda would see right through him.

Yoda: "Return power to the Senate, we must."
Windu: "Master Yoda, I beg to differ. The Senate brought about the crisis by appointing Palpatine Supreme Chancellor. They cannot be trusted."
Yoda: "Hmmm. Clouded by the Dark Side, your thoughts are."
Windu: "You make a serious insinuation, Master Yoda."
Yoda: "Insinuate, I do not. The truth, I state. Down the path to the Dark Side, you walk."
Windu: "Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree, Master Yoda. <snap, hiss>"
Yoda: "Defeated Palpatine, you did. Become him, you will not!"

At which point, Yoda owns him. Overall, I suspect Windu's untimely death just ends up coming a little later.

I think Mace had a tricky plan: he wanted to 'arrest' Sidious, knowing he'd resist, so they could kill him. Sidious' plan was just trickier. Mace is obviously one of those Jedi with no faith in the Republic they were supposed to serve.

Did anyone else get the impression that Windu was starting on his own path towards the dark side?

No, for two reasons.

1) The Jedi know that a Sith Lord is pulling major strings in the Republic and that his apprentice is behind the CIS. In fact, they can probably guess that the Sith have set up the war for their own ends. And this has been brewing with in the Jedi Council, if not the ranks, for years.

2) The Jedi seem to have a disdain for mundane politics and veiw it as unsavory at best. Look at Obi-wan's attitude towards politicians in general; even back in The Phantom Menace it's hardly complimentary. And if he can see deciet in even the likes of Padme, who he knows and should trust, what does that say about ordinary politicions. And this doesn't at all seem unusual for the Jedi. Anakin's veiws are equally messed up and simplistic. So I dare say the Jedi have distrust for politics and politicions in general.

I think both of those, and the former especially, influenced Mace into hasty action. I don't think it was at all the temptation of the Dark Side, just a desire to protect what he saw as good from what he presumed to be evil. He might have been a bit too willing but he had selfless reasons. And ultimately he was proved right.

First he wants to overthrow the legitimate government, which Yoda states leads to a dark place.

That dark place being a Jedi coup and probably a prolonged bout of civil strife, if not further rebellion and warfare. Yoda is probably as aware as anyone of the potential consequences of that action and how badly it can turn out with out the dark side. He's also aware that the Jedi could well turn into despots, enlightened ones perhaps but still despots.


I think it's also worth pointing out that Mace Windu is the epitome of the Pre-fall Jedi. He's a brilliantly capable Jedi, strong in the force, and a great leader of men; he's also arrogant, dogmatic, and blinkered. Unlike Yoda who has a lot tempering him, Mace doesn't and gives into those faults as much as he exhibits his virtues. His actions in RotS are pretty much the culmination of both sides of him.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Or would he eventually become a Sith himself?

How would that happen if he's just killed the ONLY Sith Lord in the galaxy?

Great post Stormbringer.

Imperial Overlord wrote:Great post Stormbringer.

Thank you.

Stormbringer wins, and the rest of us look like fools.

Stofsk wrote:How would that happen if he's just killed the ONLY Sith Lord in the galaxy?

The Sith do appear to have strategies for recreation of the Sith Order if they're all wiped out. There are Sith Holocrons, and temples like the one that partially corrupted Kyle Katarn in the Mysteries of the Sith storyline.

Mace used the Vaapad lightsaber style, which puts a person very close to the darkside when they use it. This is because it requires the user has focus their anger into their attacks. Mace is one of only three Jedi to master this style (not even the creator of Vaapad mastered or even finished it) and the other two ended up falling to the darkside. What I think is the combo of Vaapad, Mace's anger of losing three friends, Palpatines dark influence and other possible factors were probably pushing him into the darkside.

Aya wrote:Mace used the Vaapad lightsaber style, which puts a person very close to the darkside when they use it. This is because it requires the user has focus their anger into their attacks. Mace is one of only three Jedi to master this style (not even the creator of Vaapad mastered or even finished it) and the other two ended up falling to the darkside. What I think is the combo of Vaapad, Mace's anger of losing three friends, Palpatines dark influence and other possible factors were probably pushing him into the darkside.

Pushing him to do something vengeful? Yes. Pushing him to irrevocable corruption? Not likely. At most it's akin to Luke striking out at the Emperor and Vader in RotJ. Mace has been pushed beyond all limits and has the epitome of evil helpless before him. Given how dangerous Palpatine is, how much damage he's done, and how right Mace was about the rigged nature of the Republic I'd say killing him would be the only sane choice.

Dark Side corruption is clearly unnecessary to explain his actions nor is it a necessary result of his actions. All in all, it was simply a messy situation that was far from black and white.

Stormbringer wrote:

Aya wrote:Mace used the Vaapad lightsaber style, which puts a person very close to the darkside when they use it. This is because it requires the user has focus their anger into their attacks. Mace is one of only three Jedi to master this style (not even the creator of Vaapad mastered or even finished it) and the other two ended up falling to the darkside. What I think is the combo of Vaapad, Mace's anger of losing three friends, Palpatines dark influence and other possible factors were probably pushing him into the darkside.

Pushing him to do something vengeful? Yes. Pushing him to irrevocable corruption? Not likely. At most it's akin to Luke striking out at the Emperor and Vader in RotJ. Mace has been pushed beyond all limits and has the epitome of evil helpless before him. Given how dangerous Palpatine is, how much damage he's done, and how right Mace was about the rigged nature of the Republic I'd say killing him would be the only sane choice.

Dark Side corruption is clearly unnecessary to explain his actions nor is it a necessary result of his actions. All in all, it was simply a messy situation that was far from black and white.

I for the most part agree with you. Mace was totally desparate, he was doing the right thing and believed so. But at the same time he was turning to the dark side. I think Palpatine did so much to the Jedi that he was totally clouding the Judgement and abilties of the Jedi Order. That and their arrogance is what brought them down.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:I for the most part agree with you. Mace was totally desparate, he was doing the right thing and believed so.

Which is all I think that needs to be considered.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:But at the same time he was turning to the dark side. I think Palpatine did so much to the Jedi that he was totally clouding the Judgement and abilties of the Jedi Order.

I think the evidence for it isn't there, isn't necessary to explain the events, and has no purpose story-wise. So as it stands, I don't see it.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:That and their arrogance is what brought them down.

There are so many things that brought the Jedi to that crossroads.

I think Stormbringer has it.

I also think Mace could see the line clearly between the Dark Side and the Light, moreso than other Jedi. He could therefore tread closer to it safely.

I don't have a concrete reason, just a gut feeling about him.

Aya wrote:Mace used the Vaapad lightsaber style, which puts a person very close to the darkside when they use it. This is because it requires the user has focus their anger into their attacks. Mace is one of only three Jedi to master this style (not even the creator of Vaapad mastered or even finished it) and the other two ended up falling to the darkside. What I think is the combo of Vaapad, Mace's anger of losing three friends, Palpatines dark influence and other possible factors were probably pushing him into the darkside.

Actually, Mace created Vaapad himself as a means of channeling his own dark impulses to a productive end. The only other master of the style was Depa Billaba, who fell to the dark. Sora Bulq, the old Temple lightsaber instructor, claimed to have mastered it, but Mace denied that he did. However, Bulq's fall was apparently assisted by active recruiting on the part of Dooku.

As for the discussion at hand, I'll just have to me-too Stormy.

I'm confused by the perceived threat of Windu or Yoda falling to the Dark Side and establishing the Empire on their own. Neither Windu nor Yoda could command the overall loyalty of the GAR, which one would suspect along with Order 66, Sidious probably implanted other contingencies. And during both fights neither Windu nor Yoda seemed to be having the whole "Give in to your hate" thing that Luke faced in RotJ.