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In the PT, we watch high-end military grade fighers evolve into TIEs. However, they didn't start that way, and I think we can learn things about the Republic, military doctrine, and technology from examining the examples we have.

The Naboo figther shows that the basic TIE format was largely possible many years before they were designed. The ship has little internal volume that isn't cockpit, astromech or engine pods. The podded engines represent the only major design difference with later designs. These fighers had shields, dual rapid-fire guns, an astromech and missiles in a much smaller package than the later X-wing.

The first Jedi fighter (the Delta-7?) was obviously designed to take advantage of Jedi pilots - it apparently has no missiles, an astromech in an apparently poor position, etc. It's engines have already become the small features common in all later high-end fighters. I assume much of the 'arrowhead' surface is for heat radiation, as the engine/cockpit/gun volume is very small.

I'm not sure in what concrete ways the Eta is supposed to be better than the Delta. It's larger, has extenable heatsink panels, more guns, and is further along the evolution toward TIEs. Most of the arrowhead is gone, the guns are large and more numerous. I recall Obi wan using a ring in ROTS, so it doesn't have a hyperdrive either.

The fighters seen at the end of ROTS have fixed heatsink panels, like TIEs, and ball cockpits, like TIEs (and the Eta). It retains some arrowhead, however. Over time, it seems this will be deleted, leaving only the heatsink panels and the cockpit ball.

Other fighter types (such as the ARC-170) did not follow this design evolution. I assume this is because these ships are not intended to be stripped-down, high-performance interceptors and dogfighters.

From these observations, it seems clear that as fighters became faster, more powerful and smaller, extendable heatsinks were used to dump the extra waste heat. Even the comparatively large ARC-170 uses these, and they are retained on the X-wing of later years. This suggests that war fighters like Etas are much more powerful than the fighters used by the 'military' of Naboo. The lack of hyperdrives and missiles suggests their role as simple interceptors.

What does this tell us about military priorities before, during and after the clone wars?

One thing for certain, Jedi didn't have shields on their interceptors (It was wasn't neccessary), and that made the fighters even faster and more manuverable, as they had less mass to throw around, and regardless of being in space or in atmosphere, that meant the engines had to do less work. This caught on with the Empire's designers, who rolled out the first T.I.E. fighter, which was replaced by the TIE/ln (The common TIE fighter of the OT).

The question is, how the Old Republic TIE's fit into this (the ones with octagonal panels).

the ARC-170 is an older fighter that the GAR adopted (it's a predesessor for the Z-95 which came to service sometime before TPM)

The N-1 also sports a hyperdrive according to the TPM ICS.

So when, exactly did the Z-95 and the Y-wing come into use, since they're both considered old by ANH?

If I recall correctly the Z-95 is old by the time of Han Solo at Star's End.

SVPD wrote:So when, exactly did the Z-95 and the Y-wing come into use, since they're both considered old by ANH?

If I recall correctly the Z-95 is old by the time of Han Solo at Star's End.

the Z-95 did come to service soemtime pre-TPM (there's retired pilot in TPM novelization who says that if he had choice he would alway flying a Z-95) aqnd the Y-wing is also from the PT era (pre-Order 66).

Lord Revan wrote:If I recall correctly the Z-95 is old by the time of Han Solo at Star's End.

the Z-95 did come to service soemtime pre-TPM (there's retired pilot in TPM novelization who says that if he had choice he would alway flying a Z-95) aqnd the Y-wing is also from the PT era (pre-Order 66).[/quote]The Y-Wing was around since before Order 66? It's older than I initially thought, but I guess I shouldn't really be surprised considering the technology level in both eras is essentially identical.

Detailed quantification of fighter performance would be needed to confirm this, but I suspect that an OT starfighter in the PT era, or vice versa, would not at all be out of place in term of capabilities.

Tribun wrote:The question is, how the Old Republic TIE's fit into this (the ones with octagonal panels).

They were probably prototypes and not mass poduced. It seems that the Republic favored KDY and Incom fighter lines more than those of Seinar during the 13 years span of the PT. After RotS KDY is given exclusive contracts on capital ships (something they did not monopolize during the Clone Wars), but lost their fighter contracts, as Incom seemingly did. For some reason or another the Empire began to favor SFS fighters more than the fighters of the other major starship contractors.

Terrace Manosk wrote:One thing for certain, Jedi didn't have shields on their interceptors (It was wasn't neccessary),

Yes they did. The Aethersprite clearly had some as Slave 1's guns only damaged the hull, but none of the wiring or components underneath. This implies a kind of weak shielding at least. The Actis is credited in the novel with "ablative shields". These two may be the same defense, the shields are projected under the hull, which will ablate, absorbing most of the energy. This reduces what the shield has to handle, thus effectively increasing shield strength while decreasing overall surface area and thus size.

Ender wrote:

Terrace Manosk wrote:One thing for certain, Jedi didn't have shields on their interceptors (It was wasn't neccessary),

Yes they did. The Aethersprite clearly had some as Slave 1's guns only damaged the hull, but none of the wiring or components underneath. This implies a kind of weak shielding at least. The Actis is credited in the novel with "ablative shields". These two may be the same defense, the shields are projected under the hull, which will ablate, absorbing most of the energy. This reduces what the shield has to handle, thus effectively increasing shield strength while decreasing overall surface area and thus size.

But the Eta-2 didn't have the more common shields found on most starships (i.e. like those see on the N-1 in TPM)

Isn't the Sith Infiltrator a Sienar design? How does this fit into starfighter evolution? Can you even consider it a starfighter or is it too big? A gunship, then?

IIRC, the Infiltrator was a modification of an armed courier. I don't know how it fits in with the lineage, though unless I'm mistaken, Sienar uses the technology from that craft in later designs.

The Original Nex wrote:

Ender wrote:

Terrace Manosk wrote:One thing for certain, Jedi didn't have shields on their interceptors (It was wasn't neccessary),

Yes they did. The Aethersprite clearly had some as Slave 1's guns only damaged the hull, but none of the wiring or components underneath. This implies a kind of weak shielding at least. The Actis is credited in the novel with "ablative shields". These two may be the same defense, the shields are projected under the hull, which will ablate, absorbing most of the energy. This reduces what the shield has to handle, thus effectively increasing shield strength while decreasing overall surface area and thus size.

But the Eta-2 didn't have the more common shields found on most starships (i.e. like those see on the N-1 in TPM)

ETA-2 = Actis interceptor.

The Infiltrator was a modified seinar according to TPM:ICS. I thought that the fighters that were escorting Palpentines shuttle did have folding wings? I thought thats what happened when one landed behind the shuttle. I am not sure but I think the shuttle is Mu class shuttle.

Ender wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:

Ender wrote:Yes they did. The Aethersprite clearly had some as Slave 1's guns only damaged the hull, but none of the wiring or components underneath. This implies a kind of weak shielding at least. The Actis is credited in the novel with "ablative shields". These two may be the same defense, the shields are projected under the hull, which will ablate, absorbing most of the energy. This reduces what the shield has to handle, thus effectively increasing shield strength while decreasing overall surface area and thus size.

But the Eta-2 didn't have the more common shields found on most starships (i.e. like those see on the N-1 in TPM)

ETA-2 = Actis interceptor.

Yes I'm aware of that.

Kartr_Kana wrote:The Infiltrator was a modified seinar according to TPM:ICS. I thought that the fighters that were escorting Palpentines shuttle did have folding wings? I thought thats what happened when one landed behind the shuttle. I am not sure but I think the shuttle is Mu class shuttle.

The Emperor's shuttle in RotS was a Cygnus Spaceworks Theta-class.

Being a slight movie-purist (to the extent of part ignorance, part disgust with what I've seen), I'm happy to see all the lame EU ships being outclassed by 'proper' PT ships.

I didn't know that the Naboo ship had hyperdrive. This means Xwings, for all their EU wanking, are rubbish, since the Naboo ship is much smaller and has almost the same capability. I'm sure the Xwing was used for practical reasons, but the regular 'Xwings are the best shit ever' thing is nonsense.

I've been corrected, that the late-ROTS fighters are 'V-wings', which look like Awings with radiator panels.

I consider Mauls ship to be too big to be considered, at least in this discussion - what interested me is what happened to high-performance fighter designs under pressure of war.

We gradually see all the shit stripped off, to increase speed and firepower. Looking at the Eta-2, it's (relatively) small, has enourmous guns, and most of it's size is either accomodating the guns or the heatsinks.

I find the idea of people wishing to fly a Z-95 difficult to credit. My exposure to this abortion of a fighter is solely from 'TIE figher', where it's an anemic, poorly armed, cannon fodder fighter. Even pre-war, not-100%-military ships like N-1 beat the shit out of them and rape the corpse.

Are there any theories on engines? Many ships (TIEs, Jedi fighters, Vulture droids) have very small engines, in some cases basically non-existent engines. Other fighters, most obviously Y-wing, N-1, and that cartoon clone fighter, have engines from 'obvious' to 'dominating the spaceframe'. If we assume no technological difference, does this tell us about relative mass of these ships? Perhaps the smaller engines lead to the need for massive radiators? However, ARC-170 has large, podded engines AND radiator panels. In this case we can probably put it down to mass, given how large the ARCs are. They appeared to be fighter-maneuveurable, regardless of their size.

Stark wrote: I didn't know that the Naboo ship had hyperdrive. This means Xwings, for all their EU wanking, are rubbish, since the Naboo ship is much smaller and has almost the same capability. I'm sure the Xwing was used for practical reasons, but the regular 'Xwings are the best shit ever' thing is nonsense.

I believe in the AotC's ICS it is mentioned that the N-1's have a limited, short ranged hyperdrive. The Flying Wing ship in the begining of AotC's had docking ports along the edge of it's wings to dock the N-1's for longer jumps.

Are there any theories on engines? Many ships (TIEs, Jedi fighters, Vulture droids) have very small engines, in some cases basically non-existent engines. Other fighters, most obviously Y-wing, N-1, and that cartoon clone fighter, have engines from 'obvious' to 'dominating the spaceframe'. If we assume no technological difference, does this tell us about relative mass of these ships? Perhaps the smaller engines lead to the need for massive radiators? However, ARC-170 has large, podded engines AND radiator panels. In this case we can probably put it down to mass, given how large the ARCs are. They appeared to be fighter-maneuveurable, regardless of their size.

Shrug, in PT era before massive war, short range fighters seemed the best. Planetary forces only had to protect their own space and didn't have to jump across the galaxy to engage the enemy. This bit was still in evidence durring the Clone Wars even though the galaxy's need was changing.

It's possible that large scale fighters with large engines able to power long range hyperdrives were always available, nitch market and all, just not as prevelent as the small ones.

The micro fighters of the PT seem to show this. Small ships with low mass to power ratio, making them nimble but not with enough power to use long range hyperdrive if a hyper drive at all. Hence the hyperdrive rings with their own power. Maybe it took both the ring's engines and the fighters eninges both to power the hyperdrive.

Anyway, jump forward to the rebellion, you need ships that are autonomous. Ship that can travel big distances for hit and fades against the galaxy spanning Empire. You just can't limit yourself to a small area anymore, you'll need flexibility. So you need something with enough power to drive a good hyperdrive. Than means a bigger ship with a bigger powerplant.

So you figure the 'engines' are also the powerplant, and that the larger engines are required by hyperdrive? That makes sense - but I wasn't aware ARC-170s were jump-capable?

Stark wrote:So you figure the 'engines' are also the powerplant, and that the larger engines are required by hyperdrive? That makes sense - but I wasn't aware ARC-170s were jump-capable?

they're Recon craft (ARC stands for Aggressive Recon Craft (IIRC).)

Stark wrote:So you figure the 'engines' are also the powerplant, and that the larger engines are required by hyperdrive? That makes sense - but I wasn't aware ARC-170s were jump-capable?

ICS's never show any sort of 'hyper core' or any sort of other powerplant other than the actual engines, in larger craft, the 'main reactor' feeds right into the engines.

So we have to reason that the engines are the powerplants too. Sure, they have aux. reactors and power sources, but not as large and powerful as the engines.

I would assume that ARC's are hyperjump capable since their suppost to be armed reconesance, wait one........................

ICS has it having a hyperdrive, class 1.5 with a 5000 ly range. The Vwing, which is considerable smaller, doesn't have one. So yeah, I guess a big ship with big engines = enough power for hyperdrive.

Stark wrote:I'm not sure in what concrete ways the Eta is supposed to be better than the Delta. It's larger, has extenable heatsink panels, more guns, and is further along the evolution toward TIEs.

Its actually smaller, albeit mostly in length. Namely, 12ish metres vs 3.5ish metres.

Kartr_Kana wrote:The Infiltrator was a modified seinar according to TPM:ICS. I thought that the fighters that were escorting Palpentines shuttle did have folding wings? I thought thats what happened when one landed behind the shuttle. I am not sure but I think the shuttle is Mu class shuttle.

It can't be, the top wing is far more elongated. It must be a Kappa, IIRC.

YT300000 wrote:

Kartr_Kana wrote:The Infiltrator was a modified seinar according to TPM:ICS. I thought that the fighters that were escorting Palpentines shuttle did have folding wings? I thought thats what happened when one landed behind the shuttle. I am not sure but I think the shuttle is Mu class shuttle.

It can't be, the top wing is far more elongated. It must be a Kappa, IIRC.

it's a Theta-class