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At the end of ROTJ we have a nice cutaway to several planets we've seen throughout the movies celebrating the death of Palpatine and by extension the Empire ("wesa free!")

Now, timing issues aside as in how the hell did they all find out so quickly, when you consider that Palpatine was loved by the Republic in PT and that in ROTS he is the victim of an insidious Jedi plot to overthrow the government and left him scarred and deformed thus gaining even more sympathy and that his Empire was virtually acclaimed by all when he announced it does it make sense that he was despised so much between PT and OT?

The destruction of Alderaan seemed to be the catalyst for wider spread resistance to his rule but before then the rebels were barely able to scrape together a few ships and their main base was defended by 30 fighters so you have to wonder if the rebels were experiecing serious manpower shortages because of lack of overall support for their cause.

And even if Palpatine was despised by many does it make sense that two worlds in particular were shown celebrating - Coruscant and Naboo.

Coruscant was the seat of Imperial Power. The good life was definately had by many there. Order and peace reigned plus you had the goodwill Palpatine must have generated still going around from the attempted coup and the rebuilding of Coruscant after the battle that devastated it (In the ROTS novelization debris from the battle of Coruscant had scarred the city scape and inflcited untold casulaties,) Usually a tyrant keeps his capital as the jewel of his empire - Keep those closests to you happy and all.

And Naboo. Palpatine was from Naboo and I assume there was a sense of pride that the Supreme Chancellor and later Emperor was from Naboo. Also I'm sure Palpatine threw his old home town a bone or two for old time's sake.

So what are your thoughts on what we saw and how they jibe with the PT and OT in regard to Palpatine's popularity and the general resentment of the people?

No. No it doesn't. Lucas needs to be beaten with a crowbar until he restores my beloved originality and stops raping my EU.

While you raise a good question, I think the sequence begs a bigger question, personally: how do these scenes remotely jive with the EU? They tend to suggest that not only is Palpatine dead, but the Empire itself has fallen (particularly the scenes on Coruscant). It more or less nullifies the EU's interpretation of the rise of the NR, in fact.

Coruscant was the seat of Imperial Power. The good life was definately had by many there. Order and peace reigned plus you had the goodwill Palpatine must have generated still going around from the attempted coup and the rebuilding of Coruscant after the battle that devastated it (In the ROTS novelization debris from the battle of Coruscant had scarred the city scape and inflcited untold casulaties,) Usually a tyrant keeps his capital as the jewel of his empire - Keep those closests to you happy and all.

Considering the fact that there are literally trillions upon trillions of beings on Coruscant, I would imagine that even if the upper classes were predominately pro-Palpy, that would not hold true for all the population. Besides, I would imagine that many of the celebrants there would have been non-human, as they are heavily segrogated and oppressed on the capital world. In any event, the celebrations are swiftly crushed.

And Naboo. Palpatine was from Naboo and I assume there was a sense of pride that the Supreme Chancellor and later Emperor was from Naboo. Also I'm sure Palpatine threw his old home town a bone or two for old time's sake.

Despite the fact that Naboo was Palpatine's homeworld, it is entirely possible he was extremely unpopular there. Nabooians seem to be artsy, free-willed types, and in a culture like that, Tyrants would be frowned upon. Also, many of the celebrants there are Gungans as well (most likely for the same reasons as on Coruscant.) Considering that the humans seemed to improve their relations with the Gungans after TPM greatly, there is another reason for discent.

as such probaly not, but it's possible that not all of those happened at same time (or that celebration for end of the civil war).

It possible the celebrations are not consecutive.

Not really. At some point Lucas probably realized that for all the Empire is presented as being evil, we really only have one example--Alderaan--of this being an institutional problem as opposed to being an issue of individual personalities like Vader and the Emperor. Sure, we can tell that the two Sith are bad guys, but we had no idea how the galaxy at large feels about the Empire. Lucas then threw in a couple of scenes that speak volumes about this issue.

I personally think it's still ambiguous as to whether or not the Empire is in itself a great evil, even with all the A-level canon facts we're ever going to get now being in. When you compare the 20 years of peace and order experienced by the Empire to the indecisiveness and corruption of the Old Republic, and the utter worthlessness of the New Republic government, it's still a very difficult question.

McC:
In one of the EU novels (I forget which) they describe the Empire putting down the celebrations with force, at least on Coruscant.

Is it possible that with such events as Alderaan, the Emperor grew less popular? Or if they ever liked him anyway?

Not everyone could have had Anakin's naive attitude towards Palpatine.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:McC:
In one of the EU novels (I forget which) they describe the Empire putting down the celebrations with force, at least on Coruscant.

I smell retcon. (Not you, just EU authors in general)

The events, in terms of the number seen and the level of participation, are ridiculously small. And even in a totalitarian regime it is not hard to seize control of a few square miles of a highly populous city, which is all we have any real evidence for on Coruscant, for example.

I suspect that the Imperials quickly brought in forces from loyal regions and destroyed the demonstrations. This would be quite analogous to the suppression of the uprisings in Hungary and the Czech Republic in the 50s and 60s, or even, going back further, to the failure of the 1848 revolution in Germany and Austro-Hungary. It is probably to be expected after the Endor debacle.

We can be certain that these uprisings were viciously crushed within a short period of time, but at the same time the need to crush them likely was part of the reason that the Alliance succeeded against the Empire--additional forces could not be immediately brought to bare, and the suppressions probably coincided with the collapse of Imperial central authority.

As for the feelings of the populace, I would suggest that in most cases a very small percentage of the Galactic Empire's population thinks badly of the Empire; these demonstrations are probably by college students and other members of the literati who are motivated by the abstract concepts of freedom and democracy, and have grown up without any knowledge of the chaos of the Clone Wars which brought so much support to Palpatine--in short, they are people 25 years old or younger who are against the Empire.

This would be very much analogous to the situation in Iran today, where the demonstrators are almost exclusively people born after the Islamic Revolution, and usually college students.

Gandalf wrote:Is it possible that with such events as Alderaan, the Emperor grew less popular? Or if they ever liked him anyway?

Not everyone could have had Anakin's naive attitude towards Palpatine.

Of that there is no doubt. According to WEG and some other EU sources the Rebellion experienced an explosion of membership and donations right after Alderaan with some worlds seceeding altogether from the Empire - and just as quickly squashed.

However despite all this the best the rebellion can muster at crunch time is about a sector fleet worth of ships and fighters (if that) at Endor and the Battle of Hoth supposedly made it horribly clear to the Alliance leadership just how outclassed they were and they would never muster enough forces to forcibly remove Palpatine.

This shows a distinct lack of true disastisfaction with the Empire and as Pablo deftly pointed out when you look at the awfulness of the OR government - ie can't defend a single world from being invaded by another member - the Empire seems lightyears better. Hell, Tatooine no longer has slavery and Hutt rule and that's out on the Rim, imagine how much more orderly the Core worlds are.

Regarding the issue of how they all happened so quickly and at the same time, it's because the sequence is not chronological edited. Some of those celebrations could have been several to many days afterwards, depending on when news of the Emperor's death was received, but it makes for a good montage to have them all shown one after the other, then return to the main setting to top off the finale.

Gandalf wrote:Is it possible that with such events as Alderaan, the Emperor grew less popular? Or if they ever liked him anyway?

Not everyone could have had Anakin's naive attitude towards Palpatine.

Over thirty years, with a heavily anti-alien bias and no tolerance for dissent? You betcha he could lose popularity in that time period.

the celebrants on Coruscant we see at the end of ROTJ were massacred by stormtroopers dispatched to break up the disturbance in the Allston novels (Iron Fist, IIRC.)

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Regarding the issue of how they all happened so quickly and at the same time, it's because the sequence is not chronological edited. Some of those celebrations could have been several to many days afterwards, depending on when news of the Emperor's death was received, but it makes for a good montage to have them all shown one after the other, then return to the main setting to top off the finale.

The game force commander shows the Coruscant Celebration happening after the planet has been liberated by the seizing of the Imperial pallace. But it may have been just a small riot for Coruscant

Isolder74 wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Regarding the issue of how they all happened so quickly and at the same time, it's because the sequence is not chronological edited. Some of those celebrations could have been several to many days afterwards, depending on when news of the Emperor's death was received, but it makes for a good montage to have them all shown one after the other, then return to the main setting to top off the finale.

The game force commander shows the Coruscant Celebration happening after the planet has been liberated by the seizing of the Imperial pallace. But it may have been just a small riot for Coruscant

Well THAT would make more sense if Lucas was showing us a condensed slow distintergration of the Empire and the victory celebrations afterwards because if you just look at what forces the Republic was able to muster in defense of a surprise attack in ROTS the rebels would be fucked six ways to Sunday trying to take Coruscant.

Hell, I'll bet Imperial popularity with the common masses started to seriously slip with the Ghorman Massacre and was probably going steadily downhill from there, with Alderaan being another big drop.

Imagine how many people must've called for Tarkin's head for Ghorman. And instead, Palpy gives him command of the most frightening weapon ever built by the Empire. That simply could not have sat well with most people.

We see Storm Troopers getting the shit kicked out of them during the victory celebration. If the NR already controled Coruscant then why are the troopers still on riot duty?

The Imperial City celebration takes place after the capture of Coruscant by the rebels in 42, or the recapture in 46 or so. That, or it's some kind of Endor day parade taking place years after its recapture.

The Theed scene is a Gungan insurrection and spontaneous celebration. Who knows when it takes place.

The Cloud City scene takes place following the liberation of Bespin a short while after Endor.

The Mos Eisley scene is either a local celebration completely unrelated to the Civil War taking place at a random time, or an Endor Day celebration taking place much later.

The four scenes were spliced into the end of the movie to give it a happy ending. Typical Rebel propaganda.

That's my theory, at least. I think it makes sense; in the Imperial City scene they're setting off fireworks, which indicates that it wasn't spontaneous, and the crowd-surfing stormtrooper is obviously an effigy (as it's much larger than any of the people supporting it). I only seen the Theed scene but once, but I think I remember that we only see Gungans really celebrating-- the people filling the square could easily be hostages or something. The Bespin scene, with fireworks, must take place much later, especially as there's an Imperial garrison there that obviously wouldn't let such a display take place. The Mos Eisley one doesn't make sense at all since it's backwater and most of the denizens wouldn't care much one way or another. There were rebel sympathizers in the area though, so perhaps like I said it was an Endor Day celebration some years after Endor.

Isolder74 wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Regarding the issue of how they all happened so quickly and at the same time, it's because the sequence is not chronological edited. Some of those celebrations could have been several to many days afterwards, depending on when news of the Emperor's death was received, but it makes for a good montage to have them all shown one after the other, then return to the main setting to top off the finale.

The game force commander shows the Coruscant Celebration happening after the planet has been liberated by the seizing of the Imperial pallace. But it may have been just a small riot for Coruscant

Perhaps, but from what I know some of the novels indicate that it was a riot that was put down, so I'm willing to accept that over FC's explenation.

Stravo wrote:Hell, Tatooine no longer has slavery and Hutt rule and that's out on the Rim, imagine how much more orderly the Core worlds are.

Did we watch the same Star Wars movies? Shit, it appears to me that Tattooine is still a "retched hive and scum and villianry" and Jabba the Hutt is still the big honcho.

Yeah, the Imperial presence on Tatooine was more or less superficial in actual execution.

That ending is probably the main reason why non-SW-geeks always tend to think that Star Wars is over at that point. Many people I know always go "what would the point of a new trilogy be? What's left after the Emperor and Darth Vader"? Non-fans don't accept the Extended Universe, and there's no way to convince them; they think the games and novels and comics aren't part of the actual story. No one believes me when I tell them that Boba Fett didn't die.

I have always said, that what was missing was the Stormtrooper legions on Coruscant advancing and firing ruthlessly into the crowd. Just because the Emperor is dead, doesn't mean that the billions and billions of Imperial military personnel just give up and walk away.

I always assumed that the scene where you see people take down the Emperor's statue was in Corellia, which, like Alderaan, was sympathetic to the Rebellion. If it is Coruscant then it was probably a riot that was dispersed or massacred by Stormtroopers.

The Mos Eisley celebration is probably a bunch of mercenaries, bounty hunters, and other riff-raff celebrating the fact that they just kicked the Imperials out (more like waved guns around and the Imps decided that Tatoonie just wasn't worth the effort) and a couple of Hutt syndicates are going to reward them handsomely. Besides, when you discover that the local commander had a warehouse full of booze, it would be criminal to not have party.

Naboo I'm assuming to be a celebration about them being liberated from a ruthless Moff, not necessarily a celebration directly related to the death of Palpatine.

Could City, Imperial occupation over, reason enough to celebrate.