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Were the ARCs around when the Order 66 was given? Did the Republic Commandos take out a few Jedi? I ask about the ARCs because they were known to have more "individuality" than the normal Clonetrooper and, in my mind, may run the risk of actually refusing to follow an order. Though, I doubt there is any canonical example of a Clone refusing an order.

How did Obi-wan defeat Grievous so easily? The Clone Wars showed Grievous taking on two Jedi Masters (Ki and Shaak-Ti) who were, admittedly, exhausted, but Obi-Wan takes him down without too much effort.

Was Count Dooku holding back in the fight with Anakin? Specifically to draw Anakin to the Dark Side? I was wondering because of how quickly Dooku dispatched Obi-Wan.

In the Visual Dictionary for Episode III it states that Darth Vader, due to his cybernetic limbs, can never actually use the Force Lightning used by Dooku and Sidious. Is it because using Force Lightning would damage his cybernetic limbs?

And this question goes a little beyond Episode III, and has probably been asked before, but why tempt Luke to become Sidious's new apprentice with Vader in the room? Was Vader just playing along in the hopes of joining with Luke and usurping the Emperor? And was Vader a failure as an apprentice? Did he never reached the heights of power that Sidious claimed he would during the duel with Yoda?

Oh, and is it possible that the Sith believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen One as well? They just had a different idea of what balance would bring, is what I'm guessing.

Were the ARCs around when the Order 66 was given? Did the Republic Commandos take out a few Jedi? I ask about the ARCs because they were known to have more "individuality" than the normal Clonetrooper and, in my mind, may run the risk of actually refusing to follow an order. Though, I doubt there is any canonical example of a Clone refusing an order.

Aayla Secura was shot by ARCs(and a clone commander) and Commandos/ARCs have refused or tried to refuse an order (Cestus Deception and Republic Commando.)

Crom wrote:In the Visual Dictionary for Episode III it states that Darth Vader, due to his cybernetic limbs, can never actually use the Force Lightning used by Dooku and Sidious. Is it because using Force Lightning would damage his cybernetic limbs?

Yes.

Crom wrote:How did Obi-wan defeat Grievous so easily? The Clone Wars showed Grievous taking on two Jedi Masters (Ki and Shaak-Ti) who were, admittedly, exhausted, but Obi-Wan takes him down without too much effort.

Grevious was not damaged when he fought Ki and Shaak-Ti. Remember, Mace crushed his lungs at the end of Clone Wars so he was less than 100%.

Was Count Dooku holding back in the fight with Anakin? Specifically to draw Anakin to the Dark Side? I was wondering because of how quickly Dooku dispatched Obi-Wan.

Probably. I haven't read the novel so others may want to correct me, but I got the impression that he was under orders from Sidious to try and bring Anakin to the Dark Side as an ally. Obviously he was betrayed.

In the Visual Dictionary for Episode III it states that Darth Vader, due to his cybernetic limbs, can never actually use the Force Lightning used by Dooku and Sidious. Is it because using Force Lightning would damage his cybernetic limbs?

Possibly. It may also have to do with requiring living tissue to do certain things. Though it's more likely the former since Vader was still able to Force Choke people with cybernetic arms.

And this question goes a little beyond Episode III, and has probably been asked before, but why tempt Luke to become Sidious's new apprentice with Vader in the room? Was Vader just playing along in the hopes of joining with Luke and usurping the Emperor? And was Vader a failure as an apprentice? Did he never reached the heights of power that Sidious claimed he would during the duel with Yoda?

I haven't read it in a while but IIRC Sidious thought he was fooling Vader into thinking that he was merely bringing Luke on as another ally. Vader on the other hand was stringing Luke along to a certain extent. He really did want Luke to join him so they could rule the galaxy together but he also wanted to convince him that turning to the Dark Side was a good thing. But, he also didn't think Luke was ready to kill the Emperor and wanted to try to draw the Dark Side out of him so they could take over and Luke could be properly trained. As for Vader failing as an apprentice and not reaching his full power, I don't know. I think it was more along the lines of Sidious wanting to replace the scheming Vader with someone else who would take longer to regain the level that Vader had, i.e. Vader was nearly ready to take over and Palps wanted to replace him with someone who wasn't ready to do so.

Oh, and is it possible that the Sith believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen One as well? They just had a different idea of what balance would bring, is what I'm guessing.

To my knowledge this is never touched upon. But as I said, I've not yet read the novelization and could be wrong.

Crom wrote: How did Obi-wan defeat Grievous so easily? The Clone Wars showed Grievous taking on two Jedi Masters (Ki and Shaak-Ti) who were, admittedly, exhausted, but Obi-Wan takes him down without too much effort.

Actually he took on Ki-Adi, Shaak-Ti, Aayla Secura, AND three other Jedi. He killed the other three and injured Shaak-Ti and Aayla and disarmed Ki-Adi.

I would say there are two reasons Obi-wan won.

1) Grievous had been damaged by Mace Windu. Remember the coughing, hacking, and wheezing?

2) Obi-wan is pretty dang strong. In one of the deleted scenes, Anakin dueled and killed Shaak-Ti in the Jedi Temple. He obviously cut through dozens if not hundreds of Jedi, several of them likely on the council, when he was there. Yet in a 1v1, Obi-wan is able to dispatch Anakin. Anakin obviously has more force power, so Obi-wan must have been able to make up for it in skill. Since Obi-wan must be more powerful than any of the Jedi Anakin faced, and Anakin faced some of the Jedi that fought Grievous, Obi-wan had the best chance against him.

The Spartan wrote: Probably. I haven't read the novel so others may want to correct me, but I got the impression that he was under orders from Sidious to try and bring Anakin to the Dark Side as an ally. Obviously he was betrayed.

He was betrayed, but he knew he was betrayed. He wasn't holding back when he got killed. He thought Anakin would "capture" him (with Palpatine intervening just in case he was in danger of being killed) and that he would spend the rest of the Clone Wars in 'captivity', claiming ignorance of the crimes committed by the evil Separatist Droid General, Grievous

So much for that plan.

I haven't read it in a while but IIRC Sidious thought he was fooling Vader into thinking that he was merely bringing Luke on as another ally. Vader on the other hand was stringing Luke along to a certain extent. He really did want Luke to join him so they could rule the galaxy together but he also wanted to convince him that turning to the Dark Side was a good thing. But, he also didn't think Luke was ready to kill the Emperor and wanted to try to draw the Dark Side out of him so they could take over and Luke could be properly trained. As for Vader failing as an apprentice and not reaching his full power, I don't know. I think it was more along the lines of Sidious wanting to replace the scheming Vader with someone else who would take longer to regain the level that Vader had, i.e. Vader was nearly ready to take over and Palps wanted to replace him with someone who wasn't ready to do so.

Visual Dictionary: Vader was not as strong as he was when he was Vader, due to his injuries (or whatever other reason you would prefer). He was no longer the ideal apprentice that he was prior- the Emperor still found him valuable, of course, as he was still very powerful, but no longer as powerful as he could have been (i.e. more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious)- after his being put in the suit he is still described in the novelization as "the greatest treasure of the Sith". Luke, on the other hand, was everything Palpaitne wanted from Anakin, all over again- younger, and likely just as powerful, if not more ("great disturbance in the force", "he could destroy us", "must not become a Jedi", "he has grown strong" etc).

A quick note about Grievous' smackdown. Dooku tells Grievous to never attack a Jedi without fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. Actually, I'm not sure about surprise, but fear and intimidation were definitely there. Anyway, the times he tries to fight a Jedi without those things (vs Mace Windu, vs Obi and Ani, vs Obi) he gets his ass beat down. When he fought Shaak-Ti on Coruscant, she was already tired from protecting Palpatine and fighting that huge swarm of Magna droids in the subway. Even then, she was holding her own.

Vympel wrote:He was betrayed, but he knew he was betrayed. He wasn't holding back when he got killed. He thought Anakin would "capture" him (with Palpatine intervening just in case he was in danger of being killed) and that he would spend the rest of the Clone Wars in 'captivity', claiming ignorance of the crimes committed by the evil Separatist Droid General, Grievous

So much for that plan.

Actually I like that plan, especially the part where Grievous plays the fall guy. It sounds like it would actually work too.

That being said, are you sure that Dooku wasn't holding back? He handled Obi-Wan fairly effortlessly, the same Jedi Master who soundly defeated and crippled Anakin at the height of his power. That confused me a great deal as a result.

Visual Dictionary: Vader was not as strong as he was when he was Vader, due to his injuries (or whatever other reason you would prefer). He was no longer the ideal apprentice that he was prior- the Emperor still found him valuable, of course, as he was still very powerful, but no longer as powerful as he could have been (i.e. more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious)- after his being put in the suit he is still described in the novelization as "the greatest treasure of the Sith". Luke, on the other hand, was everything Palpaitne wanted from Anakin, all over again- younger, and likely just as powerful, if not more ("great disturbance in the force", "he could destroy us", "must not become a Jedi", "he has grown strong" etc).

Was it the loss of limbs that caused him to never realize his potential? Or is it similar to an incredible athlete sustaining a serious injury and never quite reaching their former ability? When Luke lost his hand, did it cause him to weaken in the Force?

Crom wrote: Actually I like that plan, especially the part where Grievous plays the fall guy. It sounds like it would actually work too.

Yes, very plausible, but as we saw, Darth Sidious had no intention of actually following it. He didn't need Dooku anymore.

That being said, are you sure that Dooku wasn't holding back? He handled Obi-Wan fairly effortlessly, the same Jedi Master who soundly defeated and crippled Anakin at the height of his power. That confused me a great deal as a result.

Why? Watch the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan- Obi-Wan is being pushed back the entire time- Obi-Wan was using his brains, Anakin was using his balls (notice the fight goes to consistently more and more dangerous environments, something Mike pointed out a week or so ago). The only reason Obi-Wan won was because Anakin, in his arrogance and rage, jumped right at him from the platform, when he should've pulled back, taken a breather, and attacked from elsewhere. The smartest thing Obi-Wan did in the duel was get out of it. Obi-Wan is not stronger in the force or as good a fighter as Anakin (Nic Gillard made numerous statements to that effect, but Anakin's power is not in dispute).

Anyway, after I get back from the gym (after work) I'll post the novelization account of Dooku's defeat and death. It's a bit different, but not enough to sustain the idea that Dooku was holding back. Besides, we have Palpatine stating that Vader is potentially more powerful than himself and definitely Dooku twice in the film and also in the novelization.

Was it the loss of limbs that caused him to never realize his potential? Or is it similar to an incredible athlete sustaining a serious injury and never quite reaching their former ability? When Luke lost his hand, did it cause him to weaken in the Force?

No idea. I hate that concept, since it directly contradicts Yoda: "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!" (pinching Luke's arm while he says it). IP had a good idea of it being all in Vader's head and nothing to do with his actual power at all. The novelization would tend to argue that it is the fact that he's more than half machine now, but really, it is being told from Anakin's point of view, so IP's theory could apply (i.e. it's all in his head).

Dooku has just too much class with a lightsabre for Obi-Wan, I think that is evident. But I'm not sure if he is actually more powerfull than Obi-Wan in the Force given AotC and RotS. I think it is a possibility but not a given. Infact I'd hazard that they are pretty much evenly matched in that sense, only Dooku is way better at it.

Darth Yoshi wrote:A quick note about Grievous' smackdown. Dooku tells Grievous to never attack a Jedi without fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. Actually, I'm not sure about surprise, but fear and intimidation were definitely there. Anyway, the times he tries to fight a Jedi without those things (vs Mace Windu, vs Obi and Ani, vs Obi) he gets his ass beat down. When he fought Shaak-Ti on Coruscant, she was already tired from protecting Palpatine and fighting that huge swarm of Magna droids in the subway. Even then, she was holding her own.

I think we can definetly rule out fear and intimidation when facing Obi-Wan in RotS ... did you guys cop a look at that HUGE grin on Obi-Wan's face when he fights against him? It all starts with the 'hello there' line (one of my favourites from the movie) Obi-Wan gives him.

His "hello there" was a welcome and subtle nod to his greeting to R2 in ANH

The Spartan wrote:.

Was Count Dooku holding back in the fight with Anakin? Specifically to draw Anakin to the Dark Side? I was wondering because of how quickly Dooku dispatched Obi-Wan.

Probably. I haven't read the novel so others may want to correct me, but I got the impression that he was under orders from Sidious to try and bring Anakin to the Dark Side as an ally. Obviously he was betrayed.

In the novel, Dooku 'thinks' he's controlling the fight. He does get the upper hand on Obi Wan, which the novel states he was reluctant to kill him. However, prior to this move while he still thinks he is in control, thier attack takes a turn for the worse, and he realizes they use much stronger elagant attack forms. Then during the duel with Anakin, he is startled that he cannot actually beat Anakin.

As for Vader's weakness, I think the reason he never reaches his full potential while as a Sith is not due to the loss of limsb, but to the fact there was conflict within him. In "Shadows of the Empire"we do see him using the Force to actually repair his body, his lungs would heal and for short periods of time he could breathe without the suit. But he could only muster that power when he let hate and rage build up inside of him. However, when he healed himself he felt joy and once he felt that the damage would return. One cannot use the light and dark sides of the Force simultaneously and it is because of that I believe Vader never reached full potential.

Regarding the Force Lighting, and Vader being "unable to use it", One would think that SW-Tech level electronics should be able to handle something like that, and the fact that Sith Lightning really isn't "Lightning" in the traditional sense. Not that it matters, because Vader probably prefers lightsabers anyway.

The awkwardness of "why can't Vader use force lightning?" wouldn't be a problem if the EU (and to a lesser extent the movies) hadn't handed it out to every dark sider like crack rocks in the ghetto.

Obi-Wan was the Jedi best able to defeat G.G. because of his style, as he was told by Mace in the ROTS novel. G.G. was better able to counter attacking styles and Obi's was more of a defensive technique. the Ol' general also never witnessed Obi's style in person, so he had no data on it, giving Konobi the element of the surprise.

Hope that helps.

The "fear, intimidation and surprise" thing is probably key in Obi-Wan's victory. Not only did Grievous fail to achieve any of the three against Obi-Wan, I think it ended up being the other way around!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The awkwardness of "why can't Vader use force lightning?" wouldn't be a problem if the EU (and to a lesser extent the movies) hadn't handed it out to every dark sider like crack rocks in the ghetto.

Agreed.
It seems like it takes specific knowledge and training to generate any lightning of any magnitude, and only the Sith have that knowledge.. hence thet term "Sith Lightning".

The EU has to do something to avoid being boring, though.

I've got a question. Was the droid that was helping piece together Vader the same one that was in Jabba's Palace in RotJ?

Also, after watching RotS I thought Anakin got what he deserved and since watching that movie I no longer consder Vader a "cool badass" villian but someone I was glad to see die in RotJ.

Enigma wrote:I've got a question. Was the droid that was helping piece together Vader the same one that was in Jabba's Palace in RotJ?

Also, after watching RotS I thought Anakin got what he deserved and since watching that movie I no longer consder Vader a "cool badass" villian but someone I was glad to see die in RotJ.

Stragely, my opinion on Anakin did a complete 180 ... I actually felt sorry for him, and could sympathise with Obi-Wan for not being able to deliver that one fateful blow.

Strange really, I hated him in the prequels up until RotS when I truely felt sorry for him. I think Hayden, Ewan and to a lesser extent Ian all sold Anakin's fall so damn well (as well as Natalie), that it truely pulled on the heart strings.

Enigma wrote:I've got a question. Was the droid that was helping piece together Vader the same one that was in Jabba's Palace in RotJ?

Which one? There's a 2-1B, An FX-series, and a new tripod droid plus I think a few others, none of which are in RotJ.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Enigma wrote:I've got a question. Was the droid that was helping piece together Vader the same one that was in Jabba's Palace in RotJ?

Which one? There's a 2-1B, An FX-series, and a new tripod droid plus I think a few others, none of which are in RotJ.

I was thinking of the droid that took pleasure in causing pain in other droids.

EDIT: Or was it that droid that got torn apart?

The type of droid that EV-9D9 is wasn't there.