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In the novel of RotS (or so I am told) Yoda laments that the Sith had evolved over the 1000 year absense and gotten deadlier, wheras the Jedi have become stagnant and still gearing up for a war that was fought 1000 years ago (to use Stofsk's wording).

Then we have AotC where Dooku pwans Anakin with Sith Lightning, and then tries it on Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Both times he refers to the power as his greater understanding in the Force. With Obi-Wan;

Count Dooku wrote:As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours. Now, back down.

And then again with Yoda;

Count Dooku wrote:I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you, my old Master.

<snip>

It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.

The Emperor does the similar line with Yoda in RotS and Luke in RotJ.

So here's my question; did the Jedi of the prequel era actually know about Sith Lightning? Anakin's expression after getting fried by Dooku was like 'what the fuck just happened?'

It goes without saying that none of them could have experienced it first hand prior to AotC (Sith in hiding and all). And that Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace all have different ways of dealing with it; absorb/redirect, lightsabre, re-direct without absorbtion respectively.

I'm just wondering if that the Master's in the prequel's were just as much n00b's in the Sith Lightning department as Luke. Dooku seemed to genuinly believe that being able to cast Sith Lightning would own/defeat other Jedi Masters - his attempt to intimidate Kenobi, his boasting to Yoda, and given that he was a former Jedi Master himself, if the Jedi were all trained up on the ways of the Sith (or at least Sith Lightning) from the last time they fought (1000 years ago), then surely he wouldn't be whipping it out and flashing it about like it was the be all and end all.

Thoughts? Any information from other sources?

Crown wrote:In the novel of RotS (or so I am told) Yoda laments that the Sith had evolved over the 1000 year absense and gotten deadlier, wheras the Jedi have become stagnant and still gearing up for a war that was fought 1000 years ago (to use Stofsk's wording).

Then we have AotC where Dooku pwans Anakin with Sith Lightning, and then tries it on Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Both times he refers to the power as his greater understanding in the Force. With Obi-Wan;

Count Dooku wrote:As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours. Now, back down.

And then again with Yoda;

Count Dooku wrote:I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you, my old Master.

<snip>

It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.

The Emperor does the similar line with Yoda in RotS and Luke in RotJ.

So here's my question; did the Jedi of the prequel era actually know about Sith Lightning? Anakin's expression after getting fried by Dooku was like 'what the fuck just happened?'

It goes without saying that none of them could have experienced it first hand prior to AotC (Sith in hiding and all). And that Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace all have different ways of dealing with it; absorb/redirect, lightsabre, re-direct without absorbtion respectively.

I'm just wondering if that the Master's in the prequel's were just as much n00b's in the Sith Lightning department as Luke. Dooku seemed to genuinly believe that being able to cast Sith Lightning would own/defeat other Jedi Masters - his attempt to intimidate Kenobi, his boasting to Yoda, and given that he was a former Jedi Master himself, if the Jedi were all trained up on the ways of the Sith (or at least Sith Lightning) from the last time they fought (1000 years ago), then surely he wouldn't be whipping it out and flashing it about like it was the be all and end all.

Thoughts? Any information from other sources?

Well, in The Courtship of Princess Leia one of the Dark Side Force Witches uses what sounds a lot like Sith Lightning. And in Timothy Zahn's original EU trilogy the mad Clone Jedi Master, C'Boath (SP?), uses something that sounds identical to Sith Lightning. In both cases neither wielders were trained Sith Lords, which leads me to speculate that Sith Lightning is more a generic Dark Side ability than a Sith specific skill.

So it is possible that the Jedi of the PT era have come across Dark Jedi, or other beings capable of using the Force, and have encountered Sith Lightning before.

Crom wrote:Well, in The Courtship of Princess Leia one of the Dark Side Force Witches uses what sounds a lot like Sith Lightning. And in Timothy Zahn's original EU trilogy the mad Clone Jedi Master, C'Boath (SP?), uses something that sounds identical to Sith Lightning. In both cases neither wielders were trained Sith Lords, which leads me to speculate that Sith Lightning is more a generic Dark Side ability than a Sith specific skill.

I had a similar discussion with Illuminatus Primus in another thread quite recently about the exact same thing; it comes down to the whether or not you consider there to be a difference between Sith Lightning and Force Lightning.

Personally I don't mind either way, although it would be prudent to point out that C'boath was likely trained in the Sith arts (or found some notes on it in the Emperor's storeroom - he was living there after all) and the Nightsisters have shown an ability to experiment and learn in the Dark Side over the years; in Star by Star they create 'Force Nets' which surround their target and then contract cutting them up into nice little cubes.

So I believe that the Sith isn't the only way of learning the mysteries of the Dark Side - any Dark Side group studying the Dark Side could unravel its secrets given enough time - only that the Sith have a substantial 'leg up' on the others; due to being around for so long.

Crom wrote:So it is possible that the Jedi of the PT era have come across Dark Jedi, or other beings capable of using the Force, and have encountered Sith Lightning before.

Sure it could be, but that doesn't jive with Darth Tyrannus and Darth Sidious pulling it out and flashing it about as the be all and end all. And if you subscribe to the 'Sith Lightning is different from Force Lightning' line of thought, than no, the Jedi of the PT era shouldn't have ever seen it before.

Crom wrote:

Thoughts? Any information from other sources?

Well, in The Courtship of Princess Leia one of the Dark Side Force Witches uses what sounds a lot like Sith Lightning. And in Timothy Zahn's original EU trilogy the mad Clone Jedi Master, C'Boath (SP?), uses something that sounds identical to Sith Lightning. In both cases neither wielders were trained Sith Lords, which leads me to speculate that Sith Lightning is more a generic Dark Side ability than a Sith specific skill.

The NJO backs this up, when Jacen and Jaina turn to the darkside in Traitor and Dark Journey respectively, the first thing they do is start chucking lightening around. In both cases, it seems force lightening is easy to accomplish once you draw on the dark side.

Crazedwraith wrote:The NJO backs this up, when Jacen and Jaina turn to the darkside in Traitor and Dark Journey respectively, the first thing they do is start chucking lightening around. In both cases, it seems force lightening is easy to accomplish once you draw on the dark side.

Please see my post above.

One of the PT Jedi did this without going to the Dark Side. The one in Jedi Starfighter, I can't remember her name. Kyle Katarn also did it, but he's more... unusual than the average Jedi.

Taking only the movies into account, I'd say many Jedi didn't know about it, or it was known about but it was considered something that they never really expected to see again. The lightning required knowledge of a specific technique in order to create it, and that knowledge had long been lost..
It had been two thousand years since the last known Sith disappeared, after all.

In the EU, I'd say that Force Lightning and Sith Lightning are different, but not by much.. probably differing only in magnitude.
It doesn't seem to have to be "learned" in the EU (the concept of "knowledge of the Force" no longer applies)... tapping into the Dark Side allows one to instinctively use lightning.

Well the lightning really is just using the force to manipulate energy. Jedi already do that, I would expect any Knight to be able to do it. Its probably just very very taboo. I.E. you pull that shit and off to the darkside you go.



Oh and going by the Darth Maul graphic novel Darthmor Witches do ride the lightning. We also learn that Sidious never taught Maul how to use it, he was surprised by it and did not try to use it himself (he didn't in TPM either). Or defend against it apparently, because he doesn't try to block it with his sabre, he probably could do the energy absorb/radiate thing; cause he did hop up pretty quick and lay a beat down on her ass.

Spartan wrote:Well the lightning really is just using the force to manipulate energy.

Okay

Crown wrote:I had a similar discussion with Illuminatus Primus in another thread quite recently about the exact same thing; it comes down to the whether or not you consider there to be a difference between Sith Lightning and Force Lightning.

Personally I don't mind either way, although it would be prudent to point out that C'boath was likely trained in the Sith arts (or found some notes on it in the Emperor's storeroom - he was living there after all) and the Nightsisters have shown an ability to experiment and learn in the Dark Side over the years; in Star by Star they create 'Force Nets' which surround their target and then contract cutting them up into nice little cubes.

So I believe that the Sith isn't the only way of learning the mysteries of the Dark Side - any Dark Side group studying the Dark Side could unravel its secrets given enough time - only that the Sith have a substantial 'leg up' on the others; due to being around for so long.

I can buy that. I think the advantage going the Sith route, as opposed to the Dark Jedi path, is that you gain access to the Sith infrastructure and traditions and techniques. I'm with you, the Sith have been an isolated group focusing on the Dark Side for generations, that's a significant leg up.

Crom wrote:Sure it could be, but that doesn't jive with Darth Tyrannus and Darth Sidious pulling it out and flashing it about as the be all and end all. And if you subscribe to the 'Sith Lightning is different from Force Lightning' line of thought, than no, the Jedi of the PT era shouldn't have ever seen it before.

Count Dooku whipped it out and easily dispatched Anakin with it. But Obi-Wan countered it extremely easily, and Yoda did the same. In fact there is really only three occasions where Force/Sith Lightning is effective against an opponent:

1) Anakin Skywalker, AotC: Charges in without backup and slams into Dooku's Lightning. It didn't even really take him out for very long (one could argue one way or the other whether or not Dooku was under orders not to kill Anakin, but Luke took a longer harder hit in RotJ ...)

2) Mace Windu, RotS: He was clearly deflecting the Lightning and was only taken out by the Lightning whenil his hand was struck off by Anakin.

3) Luke Skywalker, RotJ: Luke had thrown aside his lightsaber and was not, as far as I can tell, trying to counter the Lightning.

So ... despite whatever attitude Dooku and Sidious had towards Lightning, it doesn't have an incredible track record.

In the Senate chamber Sidious and Yoda were going at each other purely through the Force. Admittedly in the end it was the misfortunate fall that hurt Yoda and Sidious was thrown back with similar force, but I guess it was somewhat effective then.

Just as a note, Luke did try to counter the attack according to the novel. He was surprised as well as appalled at such a perversion of the Force let alone even though someone could do it. That's all from the novel when the attack begins. It then describes him knowing that if it came from the Force that it can be blocked, and he was partly successful.

In Jedi Power Battles, Plo Koon's special attack was a lightning attack that was described as inherently dark in nature. True, games are the bottom of the barrel, but nothing contradicts this power to my knowledge.

That would qualify under game mechanics, methinks.

The effects of the power, undoubtedly so. But I don't think that the existance of a lightning power necessarily counts as a game mechanic.

I would most certainly say that a special attack in a fighting game would qualify under game mechanics.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I would most certainly say that a special attack in a fighting game would qualify under game mechanics.

i.e. Anakin in the ROTS game.

Darth Yoshi wrote:In Jedi Power Battles, Plo Koon's special attack was a lightning attack that was described as inherently dark in nature. True, games are the bottom of the barrel, but nothing contradicts this power to my knowledge.

Its called Force Lance; its a rare light side Force lightning variant; like the emerald green stun lightning Jacen uses in Destiny's Way (oh god this is dumb I can't believe I'm saying this).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Darth Yoshi wrote:In Jedi Power Battles, Plo Koon's special attack was a lightning attack that was described as inherently dark in nature. True, games are the bottom of the barrel, but nothing contradicts this power to my knowledge.

Its called Force Lance; its a rare light side Force lightning variant; like the emerald green stun lightning Jacen uses in Destiny's Way (oh god this is dumb I can't believe I'm saying this).

I read that. Probably the best example of a writer just pulling something out his ass that I've ever read.

What about Luke using some kind of light side force lightning in TUF?

Adi Gallia had some sort of "Force lightning" trick in Jedi Starfighter IIRC. (As for Jedi Power Battles most Jedi characters in that game had some kind of "energy attack" IIRC.)

Tenneniel Djo generated a powerful bolt of lightning that destroyed an AT-ST in Courtship of Princess Leia and it wasn't a Dark Side power IIRC (It wasn't also strictly "Force Lightning" per se.)

in the KotOR games, lightning is very, VERY prevalent among users of the darkside. (plus it's just so awesome to fry five or more people at once)

Sephirius wrote:in the KotOR games, lightning is very, VERY prevalent among users of the darkside. (plus it's just so awesome to fry five or more people at once)

Of course this could be chalked up to game mechanics, like the overabundance of personal shielding. Of course lightnting use might just be a fairly simple technique to master, although its use varies depending on the users power or fighting method.