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I enjoy making maps and timelines so I thought I would take a crack at making one to illustrate the events in Gold Squadron's failed trench run. In this scene, the three Ywings of Gold Squadron attempt their run down the trench only to be destroyed by Vader.

I posted this here because it is an illustrated map/timeline and Pure Star Wars is flooded with ROTS stuff.

The map itself is a pdf file found here: Gold Squadron Trench Run

If anyone has better suggestions for using another host than savefile.com, I will bow respectfully.

Method to the madness:

I started the timeline by first analyzing Gold Leader's targeting computer to determine the speed of the Ywings in terms of "targeting units." Over a period of 59 frames, the targeting computer changes from 47850 to 42220 units indicating an average speed of approximately 2900 units / s. Interestingly, the targeting computer's decimation is not constant over this time span, but instead flucates over a small range.

The main challenge with using this approach is that the on-screen time of the trench runs does not exactly coincide with a speed derived from the targeting computer. This is especially true for Luke's run, and to an extent, Red Leader's run. It is still somewhat problematic for Gold Squadron's run as the elapsed film time at the above speed has the Ywings overshooting the target. I recognize the limitations in this and conceed that I have made several assumptions that I am sorta happy with but you may not be.

I first worked forward from the last frame of the targeting computer. I decided that external camera shots of the Ywings took place concurrently with the internal views of the pilots and cockpits. I also decided that Gold 2's comments regarding the guns and targeting computer took place while Gold Leader was looking through the targeting viewport. Thus, I clocked Gold 2's scene immediately after the targeting computer scene to take place 42220 units from the exhaust port. I also assumed that Gold 5's comments regarding watching for fighters took place concurrently. Gold Leader's spotting of the fighters seems to flow from the previous shots so I started the clock from Gold 5's scene and thus had the Ywings advance to 33500 units in the elasped time.

Vader's entry is perhaps the trickest part as too much time elapses to make the scene realistic in terms of the speed suggested by the targeting computer. I interpreted the cut to Vader's entry as taking place several seconds before the previous scene. Thus when Gold Leader spots the advancing fighters, they are not flying into the trench but rather the TIES are already immediatly behind him. I start the clock again as Vader begins to target Gold 2 Ywing.

By this point, the Ywings are approximately 30000 units from the target. Gold 2 is then shot approximately 27000 units from the target and begins to break up. I disregarded the scene of Vader's shots tracking toward the Ywing and instead assumed that these were being fired as his computer was trying to lock on. The final kill shot in which Gold 2 slumps forward happens right at the lock. I was not happy with this merging of shots, but again, two much time elapses without this reconciliation.

I started the clock again as Gold Leader looks over his shoulder as the Ywings are now 24000 units from the target. Interestingly, you can see a bright flash in his goggles from Gold 2's destruction. As Gold Leader and Gold 5 begin their dialogue ("Its no good. I can't Manuever. Stay on Target...), the Ywings approach to within 13000 units. Gold Leader tells Gold 5 to loosen up as Vader opens fire and destroys the Ywing at 8250 units. Gold 5 breaks off moments later and is destroyed by Vader.

I then went back to the targeting computer scene and worked backward. Here the Death Star interjection and the Ywings flying down the trench were disregarded or assumed to have taken place during internal shots. I did keep the clock running as Gold 5's dialog is heard at the Rebel base. Using the average speed again, I have the Ywings in the polar trench approximately 88000 units from the targeting computer.

Some interesting things to note:

1) Based on this analysis, Gold Squadron's attack was closer to hitting the thermal port than I first realized. It also makes Gold 5's dialogue to Gold Leader to "stay on target" make that much more sense as the fighters by this point were only five-six seconds away from hitting the port.

2) Depending on your intepretation of what a unit is in the targeting computer and setting aside some of the handwaving I have used to get a map that makes some sense, this analysis suggests a higher size than the 160km is possible for the Death Star if you assume that the computer gives units in terms of m. Considering that the Rebel holo shows the polar trenchs covering perhaps 1/2 of the distance from the pole to the equator, the 80km trench length suggested here would require a Death Star with a diameter of 220km (i.e. 1/8*Pi*2*110=86). But again, there are numerous problems with this approach most of which involve condensing shots into a reasonable timeframe that coincide with the speeds suggested by the computers.

Enjoy!

Hmm... no one cares in AMP. *kicks to PSW*

nicely made

Dangermouse wrote:...the 80km trench length suggested here would require a Death Star with a diameter of 220km (i.e. 1/8*Pi*2*110=86).

A 220 km Death Star is fully consistent with the scale at which the Death Star I was built. Dr. Saxton mistakenly believes the model was three feet in diameter, while it actually was 120 centimeters in diameter. At the scale in which it was built (1:180,000) that yields a size of 216 km.

Thank you for your kind words. I am tossing around the idea of doing one for Red Leader's and Luke's runs as well but I think it will be harder to reconcile the on screen camera time with the estimated speeds from the targeting computer. Red Leader might be possible but Luke's run will be very difficult.

Its a tradeoff for the filmmakers between filmming a realistic run for Luke in terms of on screen time vs creating a scene that is enjoyable to watch while building suspense. Its a wonderful scene and I really enjoy the selection of shots, music and pacing for the final trench run. If it does turn out that the on screen time does not coincide exactly with the suggested speeds, I will not be too upset because it makes for a better film.

Mange the Swede wrote: A 220 km Death Star is fully consistent with the scale at which the Death Star I was built. Dr. Saxton mistakenly believes the model was three feet in diameter, while it actually was 120 centimeters in diameter. At the scale in which it was built (1:180,000) that yields a size of 216 km.

Interesting. That is comforting in some respects.

I did a study like this not too long ago. I was somewhat irritated by it, since there's no real indication in speed change for any of the fighters, even after Luke says "Increase speed full throttle" and such.

McC wrote:I was somewhat irritated by it, since there's no real indication in speed change for any of the fighters, even after Luke says "Increase speed full throttle" and such.

That is not very nice of them.

To be honest, I am not really surprised. You quickly forget about that order by Luke when you are watching the fighers zoom down the trench. Besides, video wasn't really mass produced back then and I don't think they released the full film on Super 8mm (the home version of the VCR in the 70s). Who is going to call them on it without having the benefit of watching the film on DVD in their home? I am sure it wasn't a huge issue in their minds.

Oh well...how did your study turn out by the way?

Dangermouse wrote:Oh well...how did your study turn out by the way?

"Attack Speed" Thread

These are some notes I made trying to determine the flight speed of a proton torpedo. Given the radius of the Death Star, we can find flight speed if we can determine the time from launch to detonation (assuming it is an instantaneous chain reaction)

timing of various events from SW ANH SE videotape
At Alderaan
Commence Primary Ignition 1:11:46
Fires the beams 1.12.01
15 seconds from CPI to firing at "real"time

At Yavin
3 minute warning @ 2.04.12
1 minute warning @ 2.06.20
the final run by X-Wings begins 2.06.39
30 second warning @ 2.08.05
clear to fire @ 2.09.10 -
Commence Primary ignition 2.09.20
Torps enter the port- 2.09.55
Explosion 2.10.05

up to the final minute, the movie could be said to be running in "real" time, that is no time distortion. after that though things slow down,
from 1 minute to 30 second warnings- 75 seconds
from 30 second to clear- to- fire warnings- 55 seconds
the entire Firing process takes 45 seconds, 3 times longer then at Alderaan
the last X-Wing run lasts 3.26 and they started 19 seconds after the 1 minute warning

the true time from 1 minute to firing warning to the destruction of Yavin 4 should have been 1 minute plus 10 seconds to order the shot plus 15 seconds to fire the superlaser or 1m25s. Instead screen time is 3m45s, or an overall time distortion of 2.65

The first X-wing run gives us a distance from the port of 28,000 somethings, and 32 seconds later they are at zero range and fire, assumption 28,000m in 32 seconds= 875mps or 2870 feet per sec, or 1913mph.

Second Xwing run (at full throttle) range of 20,000 units at 2.0.27, shot at 2.09.55= 1min 28 sec for an event that took 22 seconds to cover the same 20,000 units(20/28*32) at a supposedly slower speed. distortion factor 4.00.

now take the 10 sec torp run and divide by 1.85(last 30 sec), 2.50(first 30 sec), 2.65(overall event), 3(superlaser firing process), or 4.00 (final run)

duration(s) speed(km/sec)
5.40 14.81
4.00 20.00
3.77 21.22
3.33 24.02
2.50 32.00

Speed would increase if you used a 220km DS instead of a 160km DS

You know, I'm really glad that while I was deployed we managed to pick up more analysis type people insted of more EU RULES!!!11 yahoos.

Andras wrote: now take the 10 sec torp run and divide by 1.85(last 30 sec), 2.50(first 30 sec), 2.65(overall event), 3(superlaser firing process), or 4.00 (final run)

duration(s) speed(km/sec)
5.40 14.81
4.00 20.00
3.77 21.22
3.33 24.02
2.50 32.00

Andras, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but would you mind explaining this part in a little more detail. You lost me a little bit with the 10 sec torpedo run; also what does the final chart mean? Are these the run speeds over the different intervals, or for the different time compression values or something else entirely?

Also for your timing of the final two xwing runs, do you assume a constant running real time camera and that all the shots, including the Death Star, Base and Vader shots, take place in a continious fashion, i.e. when we switch to a different camera and a different shot, everything is still on the same global time. (there are no flashback shots / shots occuring simulatanously).

I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are doing. It looks interesting and certainly doing this from the VHS edition is not easy.

Andras, I think I am beginning to like this dilation method. The reality is no matter what we decide to use to determine the run speeds, there will be contradictions. If we go by the targeting computers, we have to try to explain why the scene times are much longer than they should be. If we choose to dilate the time, we have to explain the contradiction with the targeting computer.

One negative part is that we won't be able to work the runs backward from the targeting computer scenes and know exactly when the fighters entered the trench since the distance is unknown and we wouldn't know what time dilation factor to use. I suppose you could take the average and assume one.

I think I may have to use your method for my maps for Red Squadron now. Nicely done though.

Dangermouse wrote:

Andras wrote: now take the 10 sec torp run and divide by 1.85(last 30 sec), 2.50(first 30 sec), 2.65(overall event), 3(superlaser firing process), or 4.00 (final run)

duration(s) speed(km/sec)
5.40 14.81
4.00 20.00
3.77 21.22
3.33 24.02
2.50 32.00

Andras, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but would you mind explaining this part in a little more detail. You lost me a little bit with the 10 sec torpedo run; also what does the final chart mean? Are these the run speeds over the different intervals, or for the different time compression values or something else entirely?

What I meant by a 10 second torpedo run, is that 10 seconds on the tape elapsed from the time of firing to the time of the DS explosion. Torps enter the port- 2.09.55
Explosion 2.10.05

The final chart takes that 10 seconds and compensates for the subjective time dilation to find the objective duration of the torpedo run. Using the various dilation factors I calculated, I found 5 different times for the torpedo run, dividing 80km by that time got me the speed in Kps. Unfortunately the spaces between columns did not stay when I copy/pasted.

Also for your timing of the final two xwing runs, do you assume a constant running real time camera and that all the shots, including the Death Star, Base and Vader shots, take place in a continious fashion, i.e. when we switch to a different camera and a different shot, everything is still on the same global time. (there are no flashback shots / shots occuring simulatanously).

Correct, I simply used the time on the tape counter between events to determine the elapsed time.

It doesn't have to be dialation so much as documentary cross-cutting. We're seeing certain things in a sequence when in reality they're happening simultaneously.

McC wrote:It doesn't have to be dialation so much as documentary cross-cutting. We're seeing certain things in a sequence when in reality they're happening simultaneously.

I agree with this but my suspicion is that even if we do assume some of the shots are simultaneous (the tracking shots of the fighters / the cuts to Vader's fighter / the cuts to home base / etc), the elapsed time for Luke will be longer than what the targeting computer speeds predict. I was barely able to reconstruct a scene that sorta makes some sense with Gold Squadron, and I assumed a lot of simulatanous shots. I don't think Luke's run, even after accounting for simulateous shots, is reconcibile with these speeds.

Either we have to assume dilation, say that the fighters are changing speeds dramatically thoughout the scene, increase the size of the Death Star to support the longer time with the suggested targeting computer speeds, say that the targeting computer numbers refer to something else, or chalk it up to movie magic. I am ok with the movie magic cop out because its an extremely well composed and edited scene, and sacrificing technical accuracy for artisic completeness can be a good thing. Still, its not comforting.

I like Andras's method because its very objective.

Andras wrote:What I meant by a 10 second torpedo run, is that 10 seconds on the tape elapsed from the time of firing to the time of the DS explosion. Torps enter the port- 2.09.55
Explosion 2.10.05

The final chart takes that 10 seconds and compensates for the subjective time dilation to find the objective duration of the torpedo run. Using the various dilation factors I calculated, I found 5 different times for the torpedo run, dividing 80km by that time got me the speed in Kps. Unfortunately the spaces between columns did not stay when I copy/pasted.

I see. So we have a spread of speeds here. Where did your 80km number come from? Are you assuming that the fighters fly down the enter trench and that it is maybe 1/8 of the total circumference of the DS? I want to make sure I understand everything that you are doing.

Andras wrote: Correct, I simply used the time on the tape counter between events to determine the elapsed time.

Understood. I like the fact that the one minute warning and 30 second warnings can be used to put time limits on the scene.

Dangermouse wrote:

Andras wrote:What I meant by a 10 second torpedo run, is that 10 seconds on the tape elapsed from the time of firing to the time of the DS explosion. Torps enter the port- 2.09.55
Explosion 2.10.05

The final chart takes that 10 seconds and compensates for the subjective time dilation to find the objective duration of the torpedo run. Using the various dilation factors I calculated, I found 5 different times for the torpedo run, dividing 80km by that time got me the speed in Kps. Unfortunately the spaces between columns did not stay when I copy/pasted.

I see. So we have a spread of speeds here. Where did your 80km number come from? Are you assuming that the fighters fly down the enter trench and that it is maybe 1/8 of the total circumference of the DS? I want to make sure I understand everything that you are doing.

80km is the radius of DS, the torpedo has to go from the surface to the center to destroy the reactor and start the chain reaction. Remember, I wasn't really trying to do anything for the fighters themselves, just to find the flight speed of a torpedo. The apparent time dilation of the last minute made things a little more complicated then expected

Given the possibility that the radius is 108-110km, torpedo speeds could be increased by 37.5% to compensate.

Andras wrote: duration(s) speed(km/sec)
5.40 14.81
4.00 20.00
3.77 21.22
3.33 24.02
2.50 32.00

Speed would increase if you used a 220km DS instead of a 160km DS

I think I have misread this. You are refering to the speed of the torpedos themselves and not the xwing fighters, correct?

Yes, the table refers to the flight speed of a torpedo.

I did take a shot at the Xwings- "The first X-wing run gives us a distance from the port of 28,000 somethings, and 32 seconds later they are at zero range and fire, assumption 28,000m in 32 seconds= 875mps or 2870 feet per sec, or 1913mph."

Mange the Swede wrote:

Dangermouse wrote:...the 80km trench length suggested here would require a Death Star with a diameter of 220km (i.e. 1/8*Pi*2*110=86).

A 220 km Death Star is fully consistent with the scale at which the Death Star I was built. Dr. Saxton mistakenly believes the model was three feet in diameter, while it actually was 120 centimeters in diameter. At the scale in which it was built (1:180,000) that yields a size of 216 km.

Source for that?

Ender wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:

Dangermouse wrote:...the 80km trench length suggested here would require a Death Star with a diameter of 220km (i.e. 1/8*Pi*2*110=86).

A 220 km Death Star is fully consistent with the scale at which the Death Star I was built. Dr. Saxton mistakenly believes the model was three feet in diameter, while it actually was 120 centimeters in diameter. At the scale in which it was built (1:180,000) that yields a size of 216 km.

Source for that?

Well, there's the Star Wars Databank behind the scenes entry about the Death Star:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/locati ... ar/?id=bts

Then there's the entry in the "Behind the Magic" CD-ROM, where the 120 cm size of the Death Star model is mentioned. I don't know if it will run under XP (I haven't tried to run it under XP), so I can't quote verbatim. The scale which was used for the DS model was mentioned in Bantha Tracks no. 6 (which is available on Hyperspace, otherwise Dr. Saxton quotes the relevant passage on his Death Star page: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/#bantha ).
So, if we go by the behind the scenes material, the DS was intended to be 216 km in diameter.