I will even learn to stop people from dying

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-11-29 10:16pm

Now, I know this has been discussed before, but after seeing AOTC for the umpteenth time today, the line really struck me. GL wrote that line for a reason. At first I scoffed at it as typical Anakin ranting. But there is the mystery of where we have all these ghost Jedi appearing.

Anakin is a personifcation of the Force. He is essentially the Force given physical form (Think Christ like figure) As such, Jedi that anchor themselves to him may remain on this plain of reality as ghosts because of Anakin's powerful connection to the Force. (Again a Christ like allusion - he grants eternal life, he is the way the truth and the life)

When Anakin says that he will even learn how to stop people from dying he was right, from a certain point of view, someone learns that they can do this. My bet Yoda remembers hearing Qui Gon's voice from his probing and relaizes that Qui-gon is linked to anakin somehow. He teaches this trick to Obi Wan.

Luke is Anakin's son so he shares the ability to see these ghosts linked to his father.

GL's commentary further makes me believe that this is the case when he talks about a reason being given in Ep. III for all the Jedi ghosts we see in the OT.

Any thoughts or has this been beaten to death already?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-30 12:08am

Stravo, I think it most likely that Anakin's line was meant to foreshadow Yoda's line to Luke.

"Master Yoda, you can't die."

"Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong."

Now, Yoda did prevent himself from "dying" in the sense that you took it to mean. That is, he appeared later to Luke, although the EU reveals that he never appeared to anyone else. If Anakin's line had been meant to allude to the appearance of Jedi as "ghosts," then Yoda's similar line from RotJ would likely have said something to the same effect.

In addition, when Vader (Anakin) killed Obi-Wan on the Death Star, he was surprised that Kenobi's body disappeared. This appears to be an important step in the transfer of a Jedi's life into his "ghost" form. Thus, it appears that Anakin's goal went unfulfilled.

I like your interpretation, but I think it more likely that the line was merely an allusion to Yoda's RotJ one, and that it was meant to highlight Anakin's ambition and desire for additional power.

Additionally, the line might be meant as ironic foreshadowing: Anakin is the one who desires to stop people from dying, but Obi-Wan and Yoda--who do not wish for that power--receive it. This would make some amount of sense, but I still find the previous potential explanation more likely.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-11-30 12:37am

ive an idea. luke is psychotic and needs medicating. hows that?

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-11-30 02:02am

Or it can just be written off as nothing. Remember that he was still grieving. His mother was the most important thing in his live. More important than even Padme. He wanted more than anything to be able to save her, but he couldn't. He was angry that he didn't have the power, so he was pouting. (A family trait as we see later.)

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-30 02:19am

Master of Ossus wrote:Additionally, the line might be meant as ironic foreshadowing: Anakin is the one who desires to stop people from dying, but Obi-Wan and Yoda--who do not wish for that power--receive it. This would make some amount of sense, but I still find the previous potential explanation more likely.

Don't forget, that when Anakin is able to accept death, he is also able to recieve that form of immortality as well.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-30 03:02am

An interesting chain of events ties together a lot of unlikely people in the movies. Apparantly, Count Dooku was Yoda's Padawan for awhile yet he was later corruptable by the Dark Side (and Yoda couldn't detect it until the end).

Now, Dooku was also Qui-Gon's master, and Qui-Gon stayed neutral. He trained Obi-Wan, who was a "struggling neutral-good" I think. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, the pure manifestation of the Force, who also tried to be good but succumbed to evil. We know he eventually becomes Palpatine's apprentice in the Sith.

It seems that everyone who came from the long line of Yoda's influence is having trouble walking the straight path. Yoda gets one last chance with Luke (thus closing the circle) but even Luke is unsure and struggles to stay on his path. Luke eventually takes Mara Jade-- their kids are going to be impossibly volatile. (And apparantly Luke's new Jedi Order has done away with that whole chastity thing. Good boy.)

Darth Maul and Palpatine: apparantly they grew up as free agents; no one ever mentioned them being in the Academy (and Palpatine would not have been able to walk away and be a Senator/Chancellor). They were concealed the whole time, as was Dooku's turning. How?

There is a twisted convolution of events that I suspect may only come to light with the third and last movie. Some odd force connection that explains the bind these people face. Will Dooku, Luke, Palpatine, Mara and Mara's kids also be able to manifest themselves as Force Spirits? They too all had connections to Anakin/Vader...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-30 12:58pm

neoolong wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Additionally, the line might be meant as ironic foreshadowing: Anakin is the one who desires to stop people from dying, but Obi-Wan and Yoda--who do not wish for that power--receive it. This would make some amount of sense, but I still find the previous potential explanation more likely.
Don't forget, that when Anakin is able to accept death, he is also able to recieve that form of immortality as well.

Ah, excellent point, neoolong. I had forgotten that.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-30 01:03pm

May I point out that how many Other people could stay Alive after being DROPED IN MOLTEN METAL AND HAVING HIS ARM AND LEGS BURNED OFF?

Think anyone else could hope to survive that?

Anakin did

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 01:24pm

Mr Bean wrote:May I point out that how many Other people could stay Alive after being DROPED IN MOLTEN METAL AND HAVING HIS ARM AND LEGS BURNED OFF?

Think anyone else could hope to survive that?

Anakin did

He was powerful enough. Barely.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-11-30 03:42pm

and as well as revieving 100% burns, he was able to breathe, at times, without his suit. I think I remember reading that in Shadows of The Empire. Vader was trying to use the force to heal his scared lungs, but only succeeded for a few moments at a time.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-30 04:40pm

Isn't that where he is at one of his castles meditating?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-01 09:11am

yeah i think so

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-12-01 09:58am

He does it in the ESB novelisaton as well IIRC. To my memory he is atcually powerful enough to do it but he cannot keep his hate and anger going when the healing starts to take effect.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-01 12:41pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:Isn't that where he is at one of his castles meditating?

He has at least two castles for meditation. One of them is destroyed in the Black Fleet Crisis series, and another is revealed in the children's book "Blade of Kenobi."

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-01 06:41pm

Bean and Thrawn's interpretation is the way I took it: he says he'll learn to keep people from dying, and he does indeed manage to stay alive after his fight with Kenobi. It'll be interesting to see how that actually turns out.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-01 07:20pm

It is rather ironic. Anakin says that he will stop people from dying, but he trails devestation wherever he walks.

All his friends and loved ones die, or are lost to him. His mother is killed by the Tuskan raiders. We know Padme kicks the bucket, or, if not, leaves him. Qui-Gon is killed. His children are hidden from him. Obi-Wan deserts him when he becomes evil. He is left with only Palpatine, because only Palpatine survives and only Palpatine accepts him even as he manipulates him. We see the seeds of this in that one scene in AotC.

But all his enemies survive, to an extent. Obi-Wan eludes him and then escapes his wrath even in death. Yoda escapes him. Try as he might, he cannot capture the leaders of the Rebellion. He fails to kill Luke because of Han's intervention.

Kinda sucks to be him.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-12-01 10:50pm

At the risk of sounding like a complete moron, the whole Obi-Wan & Anakin/Vader duel before Obi-Wan went into hiding... When / Where exactly was all that brought out? It's something I'd dearly love to see on the big screen (and I pray that Lucas won't screw it up) but where exactly was it established?

Don't get me wrong, I've heard about it as well, but I'll be damned if I can remember where it all came from...

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-01 11:50pm

Mr Bean wrote:May I point out that how many Other people could stay Alive after being DROPED IN MOLTEN METAL AND HAVING HIS ARM AND LEGS BURNED OFF?

Think anyone else could hope to survive that?

Anakin did

Heh, wonder if that'll be in Episode 3.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-12-02 12:20am

Cyril wrote:It is rather ironic. Anakin says that he will stop people from dying, but he trails devestation wherever he walks.

All his friends and loved ones die, or are lost to him. His mother is killed by the Tuskan raiders. We know Padme kicks the bucket, or, if not, leaves him. Qui-Gon is killed. His children are hidden from him. Obi-Wan deserts him when he becomes evil. He is left with only Palpatine, because only Palpatine survives and only Palpatine accepts him even as he manipulates him. We see the seeds of this in that one scene in AotC.

But all his enemies survive, to an extent. Obi-Wan eludes him and then escapes his wrath even in death. Yoda escapes him. Try as he might, he cannot capture the leaders of the Rebellion. He fails to kill Luke because of Han's intervention.

Kinda sucks to be him.

Apparently Padme leaves him and kicks the bucket. Remember Luke and Leia from ROTJ where Leia tells Luke that her mother died while Leia was very young. And Leia didn't remember anything about her father.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-02 07:19am

Of course, there is the possibilty that Anakin knocks up someone else, which could be the final straw as far as Padme is concerned.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-02 08:54am

Maybe I have missed something but I thought that when a jedi died, or anyone for that matter that they'd be absorbed into the force, or become one with it in some kind of afterlife?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-02 09:12am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Maybe I have missed something but I thought that when a jedi died, or anyone for that matter that they'd be absorbed into the force, or become one with it in some kind of afterlife?

Qui-Gon didn't. Remember? They had to burn his body. It was a big question why didn't Qui-Gon fade away? George said he would explain it in EpII. Now his claiming EpIII.

The only question is if Stravo's opinion is true (and it is a very persuasive argument), then why could Luke 'see' them after Vader's/Anakin's death?

Zahn theorised that all that was required was that one Jedi being close to another so that they may 'anchor' themselves. Now this is what Stravo is essentially saying, but if I understand correctly, that is only because Anakin is strong enough. With his passing then how could Luke still see them? Am I making no sense, and just clouded the issue further?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-02 09:27am

Well I just interprepted that as dying normally and that it didn't really have any effect on the spirit of the person who'd still be one with the force or live in some kind of after life.
I thought that what was so special was that they could manifest themselves in the real world.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-02 11:42am

HDS, This has only become an issue because GL made it so. We all thought that all Jedi had this ability to live on in the Force, but now GL is saying, or hinting heavily that this is a new ability one that has only appeared with Anakin's arrival on the scene. I take this to mean that Anakin is the key. Because he is the personifiocation of the Force, Jedi close to him live on as their own being.

Perhaps in earlier times Jedi did live on in the Force but were sort of all melded together into a great big amalgam, losing their individuality and not able to manifest on this plain of relaity. But with anakin, he now grants this ability to those close to him because of his connection to the Force. Being conceived by the midichlorians makes him closer to the Force than any Jedi, even Yoda.

Now Qui Gon's voice is heard in Ep. II when Anakin is in pain or distress. It's interesting to note that Qui Gon was the first Jedi that grows close to Anakin. He and Obi Wan are not close by the end of Ep I. So there has to be a connection with the fact that Qui Gon's conciousness is still floating around and it only manifests around Anakin. Yoda hears this. I'm willing to bet that Yoda discovers the trick that allows a Jedi's conciousness to linger on and teaches it to Obi Wan. Obi Wan anchors himself to LUKE not Anakin when he dies. Luke is linked to Anakin by blood, thus he is almost as close as Anakin to the Force...in fact some may argue that he is more powerful than his father because he does indeed beat Vader in ROTJ.

Ben appears to Luke when he is in pain or distress...save in Bespin where he warns Luke that he cannot interfere. Why? Perhaps because of Anakin's proximity?

I agree with MoO that there are other ways to interpret the line but I think that the fact that GL mentions this trick in his commentray during this scene is telling and it just makes sense to me that this would be the link. BTW It is ironic that Ben tells Vader near the end that "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." The fact that Anakin became Vader because he wanted to become powerful is ironic in that Ben achieves this power and remains in the light side. Perhaps also an allusion to their earlier duel where Anakin perhaps tells Obi Wan that he will become more powerful than Ben could ever imagine.

BTW, I don't know what relvance this has to the discussion but GL planned to actually film a ghostly Qui Gon but Liam Neeson was in a motorcycle accident and couldn't do it...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-02 09:07pm

Stravo wrote:Obi Wan anchors himself to LUKE not Anakin when he dies. Luke is linked to Anakin by blood, thus he is almost as close as Anakin to the Force...in fact some may argue that he is more powerful than his father because he does indeed beat Vader in ROTJ.

This is something that has been bothering me for some time, actuall since George introduced this whole Midi-nonesense. Now since we discover that a Jedi's ability in the Force is determined by the number of Midi's in his/hers cells; do they become 'weaker' in the Force if they were to say, I don't know, lose a limb?

Because if they do, then Luke was more powerful than Vader, but not necessarily Anakin.

Thoughts?