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Said by Yoda when Mace states that taking control of the Senate may be necessary to keep order after stopping Palpatine.

So what if the Jedi were sucessful? If Anakin hadn't turned to the Dark Side, and he and Mace killed Palpatine? Would the Jedi have had to take over the Senate?

Would the Jedi have eventually fallen en masse? Or perhaps a split forms a new Sith? or could they have corrected themselves, and stayed on the side of good, or been percieved as the traitors and usurpers Palpatine branded them to justify his extermination?

All they would have to do is round up Viscroy Gunray and have him testify and then show who Sidious really is and they have and open and shut case.

What did Palpatine do other than start a war against the Senate. Lead the enemy from his presidential office all the while pretenting to defend the Republic.

The question is how do they take control of the senate, exactly? Hold them hostage? Simply declare themselves in charge, backed by the might of the GAR? (Bearing in mind that this is of course pre-Palps revelation and pre-Order 66.)

It would have been a coupe, plain and simple. If they were benevolent, they'd force new elections after Palpatine's sentence was carried out and restore control to the Senate.

Assuming Palpatine's influence over them was Force related, and that was broken, as well as the stream of bribes he might have been sending their way to buy their votes, a new government could be setup replacing his "proto-Empire."

Yes, Palpatine's crime was treason, starting a war against his own nation in order to secure power. He may also have employed illegal force control over other leaders to subvert any checks and balances in government and other corruption (bribes, threats, assasination attempts, etc).

If Order 66 was discovered (before it was carried out of course), then we also have conspiracy to commit mass murder, an illegal "purge" of his military leadership (the Jedi). Of course some of that may have been "made legal" after the fact, but I bet they could catch him on something, had they succeeded.

Yes, the Jedi could have succeeded, because (pre Order 66) they had control of the Clones, and could have used them to enforce order and force the Senate to hold new open elections until things got back to some semblance of normal (ie: pre-Palpatine meddling).

Kurgan wrote:It would have been a coupe, plain and simple. If they were benevolent, they'd force new elections after Palpatine's sentence was carried out and restore control to the Senate.

Assuming Palpatine's influence over them was Force related, and that was broken, as well as the stream of bribes he might have been sending their way to buy their votes, a new government could be setup replacing his "proto-Empire."

Palpatine had been stirring up discontent over the Jedi for some time. There's a good chance that the Senate may well have fought back by denouncing their coup. Force manipulation is a possibility, but I don't know of any evidence that he was using it on a broad scale in the senate, rather than relying on old-fashioned politics.

Furthermore, the ROTS novelization goes on about just how popular he is, and how he is regarded as such a vital figure that without him, the Republic will fall.

I don't see this coup going off cleanly.

Yes, Palpatine's crime was treason, starting a war against his own nation in order to secure power. He may also have employed illegal force control over other leaders to subvert any checks and balances in government and other corruption (bribes, threats, assasination attempts, etc).

If Order 66 was discovered (before it was carried out of course), then we also have conspiracy to commit mass murder, an illegal "purge" of his military leadership (the Jedi). Of course some of that may have been "made legal" after the fact, but I bet they could catch him on something, had they succeeded.

He had the former chancellor assassinated, among his many other little crimes. There's no doubt that given a fair hearing, he would have been convicted of a lot of crimes.

Yes, the Jedi could have succeeded, because (pre Order 66) they had control of the Clones, and could have used them to enforce order and force the Senate to hold new open elections until things got back to some semblance of normal (ie: pre-Palpatine meddling).

Assuming he had no fallbacks and no failsafes in place for implementing Order 66 while in custody. Also bearing in mind that this is the Grand Army of the Republic, and if the Republic Senate declares the Jedi to be acting illegally and strips them of their authority, there go the clones. Going on the original assumption, as their coup was planned before the revelation that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they still would have faced that possibility of the Senate turning on them and suddenly not having the GAR around to back them anymore.

End result? Whole feckin' galaxy goes to hell, probably.

SAMAS wrote:Said by Yoda when Mace states that taking control of the Senate may be necessary to keep order after stopping Palpatine.

So what if the Jedi were sucessful? If Anakin hadn't turned to the Dark Side, and he and Mace killed Palpatine? Would the Jedi have had to take over the Senate?

Would the Jedi have eventually fallen en masse? Or perhaps a split forms a new Sith? or could they have corrected themselves, and stayed on the side of good, or been percieved as the traitors and usurpers Palpatine branded them to justify his extermination?

The simple fact is if the Jedi had managed to remove Palpatine there would have been a reaction not unlike that to Julius Caesar's murder. It seems quite likely that they had only the shakiest (even if politically justified and legal, which seems somewhat doubtful) grounds to do what Mace suggested. They might have enjoyed some success but ultimately it would have degenerated into Civil War and left the Jedi on the brink, if not wiped out.

And that's with out Palpatine doing any serious hedging of his bets. And I very much doubt that considering how smoothly his transition is and how ready people are to believe, or at tolerate, the notion of the Jedi as evil or misguided usurpers. Later we see that in the propoganda of the Empire, which to a degree takes hold, and which is fairly successful.

Petrosjko wrote: End result? Whole feckin' galaxy goes to hell, probably.

Here's a good one: Mace Windu announces that when Palpatine was caught red handed and the corruption charges read to him, he fell on his (sith) lightsaber, rather than face justice. Clean, convenient!

With concentrated effort the Jedi Order could employ some methods to control the weaker willed senators to fall in line for the time being...

enter: Emperor Binks!

What if after Palpatine is killed the Jedi just toss a thermal detonator in his office and made it look like a Seperatist sabateur got to Palpatine? It shouldn't be too difficult to make this seem feesible since the Seperatists were able to kidnap the Chancellor previously. (Great security there.)


Of course, they'd have to do something about those pesky security cameras.


So, if Palpatine was just dead and no one was bringing charges one way or another the Senate could elect a new Supreme Chancellor. The question then becomes who is likely to be that person and are things going to become like they were under Vallorum except with even more rampant corruption or would there be enough people who truly want to reform the Senate because of the war?

Kurgan wrote:enter: Emperor Binks!

Just for that, I'm going to pay Connor five dollars to kick your ass and cut off your head.

Isolder74 wrote:All they would have to do is round up Viscroy Gunray and have him testify and then show who Sidious really is and they have and open and shut case.

What did Palpatine do other than start a war against the Senate. Lead the enemy from his presidential office all the while pretenting to defend the Republic.

Did the Viceroy actually know that Palpatine = Sidious?

Praxis wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:All they would have to do is round up Viscroy Gunray and have him testify and then show who Sidious really is and they have and open and shut case.

What did Palpatine do other than start a war against the Senate. Lead the enemy from his presidential office all the while pretenting to defend the Republic.

Did the Viceroy actually know that Palpatine = Sidious?

Didn't have to. He just needs to testify who's idea the war was and the Jedi have proof That Sidious = Palpatine. There has to com records they can use to prove that.

Isolder74 wrote:Didn't have to. He just needs to testify who's idea the war was and the Jedi have proof That Sidious = Palpatine. There has to com records they can use to prove that.

Mace Windu- "He controls the courts!" or words to that effect.

Who does the prosecution? Who will be the judge(s)?

Windu was right, Palpatine was too dangerous to live. If the Jedi cherry-pick the court staff to oversee his trial, it would just further the perception of an unwarranted coup.

Isolder74 wrote:All they would have to do is round up Viscroy Gunray and have him testify and then show who Sidious really is and they have and open and shut case.

What did Palpatine do other than start a war against the Senate. Lead the enemy from his presidential office all the while pretenting to defend the Republic.

He uh...claimed Iraq had WMDs!

Aya wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:All they would have to do is round up Viscroy Gunray and have him testify and then show who Sidious really is and they have and open and shut case.

What did Palpatine do other than start a war against the Senate. Lead the enemy from his presidential office all the while pretenting to defend the Republic.

He uh...claimed Iraq had WMDs!

Pardon me?

This is like GWB and OBL being actually the same person

Isolder74 wrote:This is like GWB and OBL being actually the same person

Well, now that you mention it, we've never seen GWB and OBL in the same room at the same time, have we? But, more seriously (and to avoid threadjacking), by "take control of the Senate," I thought Mace might have been referring to mind-tricking some substantial part of the Senators to keep them calm during the transition. Of course, Palpatine probably had contingency plans even for that....

Srynerson wrote:Well, now that you mention it, we've never seen GWB and OBL in the same room at the same time, have we? But, more seriously (and to avoid threadjacking), by "take control of the Senate," I thought Mace might have been referring to mind-tricking some substantial part of the Senators to keep them calm during the transition. Of course, Palpatine probably had contingency plans even for that....

No evidence, but I don't think that mind-tricking a large portion of the senate would be in character for them.

(If it's even possible to pull off- 2000 senators wasn't a large enough voting bloc to seriously impede Palpatine, after all.)

Upon pondering it, I think it goes back to just how out of touch and out of their depth the Jedi were by this point. They've been the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years. They're the good guys and they're all too aware of it, and they think that everyone else recognizes their perceived moral high ground. So if they step in and say 'Palpatine must go', everyone will sit up and take notice, and go along with them because these are the Jedi saying it.

Was there enough resdidual awe of the Jedi for this to work? Possibly, but I doubt it. For the public, the face of the CIS was Dooku, a former Jedi. That alone would serve to make them dubious of any sort of Jedi junta. If they did discover that Palpatine=Sidious and had the chance to deliver the evidence, then the odds would increase for that specific point, but so long as he's still alive and capable of triggering backup schemes, they're probably fucked. On the other hand, if they kill him it's probably the end of the Republic.

Catch-22. Very elegant stuff.

The thing is, the Jedi did not know that Palpatine was Sidious when they were discussing taking control of the senate. They were going to take control if Palpatine refused to give up his power, not because of any crimes they knew of. That may have been a hard sell since the senators were the ones to vote him into power and keep him there.

But they did know that Palpatine was gaining more and more powers,

Also in the comics Bail organa discusses with the council the fact that he believes that the councillor was responsible for Valorums death,
Not to mention the fact that by the end of the war the council knew that sidious was someone very close to Palpatine, Maybe even in his inner circle