StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Say Anakin in his rush to get to Palpatine's office gets into a hundred speeder pileup and not wearing his seatbelt is concussed. Palpatine realizes that Anakin ain't coming. Can he defeat Windu? What if Palpatine only realizes that Anakin isn't coming until Mace has the blade at his throat? Essentially do you think Palpatine was faking it to the point that he could have always defeated Mace or did he pull a "use myself as bait" again placing himself in danger in order to turn Anakin and was in no position to defeat Mace without Anakin's betrayal once on his back?

Yeah, I think that Palpatine most certainly can take out Mace on his own if he had to, and that he was holding back the entire time until the end. While he might have actually been bested by Mace in the sabre portion, I'd say that the quickness and ease with which Palpatine eliminated Mace, regardless of Anakin's involvement, shows that he could have destroyed the Jedi on his own.

I agree. Mace might be better with a lightsaber, but a Sith Lord of his stature has more than one trick up his sleeve. More than two, even. Or five.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee that he'd always beat Mace or Yoda in confrontations (there are variables like their current condition, terrain, timing, and blind luck), but I'm sure he had a good chance even if Anakin didn't enter.

Note that he was merely pretending he was too weak to stand at first.. look how fast he gets up after "UNLIMITED POWER!!1". It was just a show.
I think he could have gotten up even while simultaneously using Sith Lightning to keep Mace's lightsaber away, and continued the fight some other way or simply fled.

Shit, just look at the expression on his face right before he unleashes the UNLIMITED POWER!! onto Mace. It's almost of complete and utter glee.

Huh? Didn't Anakin send Mace's lightsaber and hand going out the window first?

Yeah, he did. I'm refering to what occured right after when he started unleashing the super-powered lightning.

Hm... what if he's so badly injured, Anakin is rebuilt with cybernetic components early...?

The whole thing about getting hurt in the speeder accident just seems to mirror the sad, sordid story of the character in my avatar.

Sidious didn't get the yellow Sith eyes that seem to be a characteristic of a Sith Lord mainlining the Dark Side until he mounted his lightning attack on Mace. If Sidious had been going all-out from the beginning, he could've finished Mace.

On the other hand, if he didn't realize that Anakin was coming until after Mace disarmed him, Sidious would likely not have been able to overpower Mace with just his Force lightning. Of course, this couldn't have happened since Anakin was already in his apartment when Sidious lost his lightsabre.

According to the novel Mace won the saber fight but using what he thought was Palpatine's fear against him, but Palpatine infers that it was Anakin's fear. Then the lightning part Mace owns him by channelling the attack back at him, and that Sideous gets the edge once Mace no longer has the saber to absorb the attack.

Ofcourse in the movie Palpatine is disarmed before Anakin arrives.

Hmm, how much lightning can Mace block with his lightsaber? Can he block limitless amounts, or would he eventually somehow be overcome?

Also, he actually sends the lightning back at Sidious with his lightsaber.
Does this have something to do with his Vaapad ability? When Obi-Wan did it (Darth Tyranus' lightning) it seems to disappear into the lightsaber's blade.
So is it possible that a a Sith could actually kill himself with his own reflected lightning?


I've heard the term "palpatine-wank before", but I understand where Spanky is coming from.. weakening the villain, in a way, weakens the power of the entire story. This is too great a story to do that to.
Still, I suspect that Sidious underestimated Mace (maybe he thought Mace would be as pwnable as all other Jedi Masters). Whether or not he could have defeated Mace with his combat abilities doesn't matter, because he effectively defeats Mace with his manipulative abilities (on Anakin). The sum total of his pwnage therefore exceeds Mace'.

Going by the acting, when Palpatine looses his lightsaber, he is quite obviously and blatantly astonished, though he hams it up later for Anakin's benefit. I doubt he planned to loose it, if nothing else, finding it again must have been a bitch. It is evident that he thought he was a better swordsman than he was (lack of practice) or perhaps that he thought Mace was as useless as Swordsman as the other Masters. While he could unquestionably defeat Mace in knowledge of the force, at this point, Palpatine is fighting with a lightsaber, which, frankly, he sucks at (for a Sith Lord).

If Anakin hadn't turned up and chopped Mace's hand off, Palpatine would die.

I disagree. I don't think Palpatine started acting until Anakin actually arrived at his office. Which occured after he was already on the ground with Mace pointing his saber at him.

It's a tough call but I suspect Mace will win. Mace is better with a saber. Palpatine dies.

I agree.

I think it makes the story even more powerful when the galaxy was so close to avoiding the tragedy of a Sith rule. The fall of he who was to be the greatest hope ensured that the Dark Side prevailed.

It's partly undermined by the way the Will of the Force supposedly made Anakin fall, in order to bring balance by erasing both the super-dynamic Sith tradtions, and the stagnant Jedi, and making all future users equal, so that a Dark Jedi won't overpower a jedi opponent in the same way a Sith Lord would have.

I'm of the opinion that Palpy was suprised by Mace's ability and when Palpy lost his saber and was on the floor, it was a genuine moment of fear and realization that Mace was going to win. Had Mace been a second faster and NOT had it in mind to arrest Palpy, Palpy would have been cut down. When Anakin showed up, Palpy knew he had it in the bag. Why would Anakin show up except to prevent Palpy's death? Everything after Anakin shows up is an act. Palpy was able to collect himself and use the lightening, sandbagging a bit to sucker Anakin in to dealing with Mace.

I think (and haven't exactly kept it a secret ) that Sideous was in a position of control for most, if not all, of the fight.

If Ani's accident happens before Sideous is disarmed, he goes multi-front on Mace, throwing shit, not passing up obvious openings, etc. If knowlage only comes after he is disarmed, it's more challanging, but given the initial difficulty Mace had in turning Sideous' low wattage lightning, I think Sideous could, again, have gone multi-attack ftw with lightning at half of max power and smacking Mace with a Convenient Large Object with the other half.

...and I do admit that there's enough evidence of Palpatine being suprised that I won't be terribly put off if DVD commentary reveals that he needed Anakin there once he was on the ground, but he totally had Mace outfoxed in the opening stages. (if you pay attention, there's a second or two where he holds off Mace's attacks while killing two of the three other Jedi, with one already down) If later evidence proves that the disarming was unintentional, I'll fall back to a 'Palpatine was dicking around long enough for a nearly-as-skilled swordsman like Mace to get in a good shot' position, just to forewarn y'all.

The way I saw it, he was intentionally keeping the fight even, including that part where he could have easily stabbed Mace and ended it, but didn't. And the fact he loses his lightsabre about two seconds before Anakin enters makes me certain he did it on purpose. If he sensed that Anakin wouldn't come, he'd have to simply kill Windu, though his plan would be damaged somewhat.

NecronLord wrote:Going by the acting, when Palpatine looses his lightsaber, he is quite obviously and blatantly astonished, though he hams it up later for Anakin's benefit. I doubt he planned to loose it, if nothing else, finding it again must have been a bitch. It is evident that he thought he was a better swordsman than he was (lack of practice) or perhaps that he thought Mace was as useless as Swordsman as the other Masters. While he could unquestionably defeat Mace in knowledge of the force, at this point, Palpatine is fighting with a lightsaber, which, frankly, he sucks at (for a Sith Lord).

If Anakin hadn't turned up and chopped Mace's hand off, Palpatine would die.

I'm not sure you can say that he sucks at lightsaber combat. He did take out the three Jedi Masters Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar. Kit Fisto, according to The Cestus Deception, was certainly no slouch when it came to combat.

I would think that killing three Jedi Masters in the matter of minutes qualifies him for some respect with a lightsaber.

Seconds, actually. He killed the three of them in much less than a minute.

YT300000 wrote:including that part where he could have easily stabbed Mace and ended it, but didn't.

Are you talking about the part where Palpatine has the tip of his 'saber close to Windu's chest and Windu's own weapon is out wide?

I was wondering if that had actually happened that way or if my inner-Wankatine was just playing tricks on me.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Seconds, actually. He killed the three of them in much less than a minute.

While it's true that the Jedi did bunch up in the doorway, I still find it impressive that he killed so many Jedi so quickly. Kit Fisto even managed to retaliate and still was cut down while Mace Windu was engaging Sidious.

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:

YT300000 wrote:including that part where he could have easily stabbed Mace and ended it, but didn't.

Are you talking about the part where Palpatine has the tip of his 'saber close to Windu's chest and Windu's own weapon is out wide?

I was wondering if that had actually happened that way or if my inner-Wankatine was just playing tricks on me.

Well, that's what I saw anyways. And unless I'm wrong, he had his arm only bent halfway and could have easily stabbed out (though even if it was fully extended, there'd be little difference).

I would like to add this, a quote from Rick McCallum regarding Palpatine's state from a recent Hyperspace Chat:

Rick McCallum
Total Posts: 301
Member Since: 06/03


Locked |


Date Posted: Jun 03, 2005 04:52 PM
This message was edited by Rick McCallum on Jun 03, 2005 04:53 PM

Hi Rick, did Palpatine "throw" the fight against Mace (loose deliberately) or was he beaten fair and square before Anakin came in?

Let's put it this way, he's definitely faking it when he's knocked down on the window sill, saying that he's weak. But before that... I hope George says something on the commentary about that.

And a somewhat vaguer quote:

Rick McCallum
Total Posts: 301
Member Since: 06/03


Locked |


Date Posted: Jun 03, 2005 04:59 PM

Rick, was palpy's crinklebutt look caused by the lightning or is it the true face of sidious?

It was molded from my... oh wait a minute. I think it's the true face of Palpatine. Of course, it takes a little lightning to get it out. Great question!

The way I see it, the battle with Mace was a gamble.

Had Palpatine gone all out from the beginning, he probably would've taken Mace out. But then that would leave Anakin coming in to find Palpatine standing over the bodies of four Jedi, and that could cast all his plans down in a fury of lightsaber slashes.

So he kills three of them, but the fourth is stronger than he planned. Anakin comes in, and Palpatine is on the verge of actually losing the battle. So he makes his move, feigning weakness agianst Mace, and reminding him of the possibility of saving Padame. Anakin and Mace argue, and at that point, the fate of the Galaxy rests on the edge. Mace goes to finish him off, and I don't think there was anything Palpatine could've done to stop him at that point.

But the gamble pays off. Anakin intervenes, and the now disarmed(pun not intended) Mace feels the full brunt of the power Palpatine was holding back.