Jedi Arogance

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 08:36am

What are all the instances in AOTC (or any other movie) where the Jedi are shown to be arogant bastards?

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-30 09:48am

Possibly in TPM: The Jedi send a mere two Jedi to parley with a faction infamous for its combat capacity, and lack of morals.

AOTC: All those Jedi lighting up their sabers in the middle of the arena may have looked cool, but it dispersed their ranks way too much and left them very open to attack.

ESB: Luke goes off to fight Vader before his training is finished.

ROTJ: Palpy plays with the Rebel fleet instead of promptly annihilating them.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 09:49am

I guess one example could be where the Jedi council can't believe that Dooku would be behind the assasination attempts on Amidala. I say could be because they mostly appear to base their opinion on the fact that he was a Jedi. Now, if they had made it sound like their belief in his inocence was mostly based on the fact that they knew him well then that would be just a case of them being mistaken.

This one is a bit shakey because Mace did mention something about it not being in Dooku's character and the other council member called Dooku and idealist, so both of those could come from personal experience with Dooku, but we don't know how well the two of them knew Dooku.

It's funny that Yoda, as Dooku's former master, didn't speak up in defense of his old Padawan.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-30 10:28am

Tsyroc wrote: It's funny that Yoda, as Dooku's former master, didn't speak up in defense of his old Padawan.

Yoda might have had his doubts and may not have wanted to defend Dooku at that time. But yeah, it is still strange that nobody even seemed to mention Yoda in connection to Dooku.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 10:32am

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
Tsyroc wrote: It's funny that Yoda, as Dooku's former master, didn't speak up in defense of his old Padawan.
Yoda might have had his doubts and may not have wanted to defend Dooku at that time. But yeah, it is still strange that nobody even seemed to mention Yoda in connection to Dooku.

To me that gives a little more weight to my opinion that they were overestimating Dooku because he used to be a Jedi and not because
they had interacted with him a great deal and felt sure of him because of personal experience.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 10:34am

In AotC Anakin's attitude that acting as bodyguards was a job for security and that putting 2 Jedi on the job was overkill, implying that they were actually supposed to do more.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2002-11-30 10:59am

Anakin had to be the most arrogant, I mean he was acting pretty badass in AoTC. (from what I understand) But, look what it got him; a cybernetic arm because he was too cocky to realize Dooku was too much for him.

By the way, maybe Yoda knew Dooku was a Sith and that's why he didn't bother to defend him.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 12:40pm

Mace's plan at Geonosis: He should have sliced Dooku, backhanded Jango and used the Seperatist leaders as hostages. Instead he delivers his macho "This Party's over" line. And when the SBDs come, does he grab a hostage? No! He starts fighting and totally ignores Jango, who procceeds to make some Well Done Jedi.

And their fighting was horrid. Those stupid poses and the "YHA!" scream. And do they go into the stands and corriders when they can fight better and escape? NO! They stay in the middle of the arena and die.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-30 12:45pm

This goes back to my MACE IS EVIL (TM) suspicion- he planned that fiasco didn't he ...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 12:48pm

Vympel wrote:This goes back to my MACE IS EVIL (TM) suspicion- he planned that fiasco didn't he ...

Good supporting evidence... and he killed Jango Fett, the guy who could directly tie Dooku to the creation of the Clone Armyand the name Darth Tyrannus.

Plus, the official info about Mace keeps saying how his fighting style (Form 7) is almost to the point of being Sith. Coincidence?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 12:51pm

Tsyroc wrote:
Vympel wrote:This goes back to my MACE IS EVIL (TM) suspicion- he planned that fiasco didn't he ...
Good supporting evidence... and he killed Jango Fett, the guy who could directly tie Dooku to the creation of the Clone Armyand the name Darth Tyrannus.

It was either kill him or die...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 12:56pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:
Vympel wrote:This goes back to my MACE IS EVIL (TM) suspicion- he planned that fiasco didn't he ...
Good supporting evidence... and he killed Jango Fett, the guy who could directly tie Dooku to the creation of the Clone Armyand the name Darth Tyrannus.

It was either kill him or die...

Yes, but he made it look more difficult than necessary so it wouldn't look like he was evil and just out to wack Jango Fett.

Why else would he have done the "This party's over" bit and left himself open to all that trouble?

Back on topic: Dooku is pretty arrogant in general but so far he seems to have been able to back it up. All except taking out Yoda but a little arrogance can be excused considering what he'd accomplished up to that point.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-30 12:56pm

I've been examining this extensively since I began my studies of the AotC DVD. Here is a bried synopsis:

The Jedi Council's confidence that Amidala would accept their judgement, which was only later demonstrated to be incorrect.

Jocasta Nu's unbelievable arrogance in assuming that the archives were incomplete (perhaps the most direct example in the movie).

The (uncorrupted) children immediately being able to understand what was going on with Obi-Wan's "lost system," which adds credence to the above incident.

Kenobi's insistence that Anakin do nothing without express permission from himself or the Council, removing much of Anakin's independence in favor of a dispassionate, distant observer's instructions.

Anakin's obvious arrogance while he and Padme are packing, on Naboo, on Tatooine, and in going to Geonosis to "rescue Obi-Wan," in spite of his explicit instructions from Master Windu to remain where he was.

Mace Windu's statement that he did not believe the Jedi to be hopelessly outnumbered, in spite of the fact that Yoda felt they were "blind," and that their ability to use the Force had diminished.

Yoda's sacrifice of the clones to save Jedi Knights, which is clearly undemocratic.

Yoda's later refusal to sacrifice the Kenobi and Skywalker in an effort to stop the war by denying Dooku his escape.

Those are the most obvious examples I can spot in the film. There are some other, less clear-cut examples.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 12:59pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Yoda's later refusal to sacrifice the Kenobi and Skywalker in an effort to stop the war by denying Dooku his escape.

Pretty ironic since Obi-Wan said Anakin would be expelled for doing the exact same thing.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-30 01:02pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Yoda's later refusal to sacrifice the Kenobi and Skywalker in an effort to stop the war by denying Dooku his escape.

Pretty ironic since Obi-Wan said Anakin would be expelled for doing the exact same thing.

Exactly. Also note Padme's consistent refusal to "do her duty" in difficult situations, even though Anakin was confident that she would do so, were she in his shoes.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-11-30 01:02pm

Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-30 02:09pm

Tsyroc wrote:Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?

I was under the impression that they were accountable to the Republican government. Seems that they have forgetten that little thing in their arrogance.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-30 02:49pm

neoolong wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?
I was under the impression that they were accountable to the Republican government. Seems that they have forgetten that little thing in their arrogance.

No. the Republic simply turns a blind eye because the Jedi are useful. The same blind eye was turned, no doubt, to the theft of jedi children. The jedi are basically answerable to only the highest levels of power and those in power overlook it.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-11-30 03:29pm

and it's this arrogance that will cause people to turn a blind eye when palpy exterminates all of them. No one likes a cocky shit.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2002-11-30 07:23pm

Tsyroc wrote:Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?

Does Zam die?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-30 08:01pm

Aya wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?

Does Zam die?

Do you want a spoiler?

Darth Valdemar · Post by **Darth Valdemar** » 2002-11-30 08:09pm

Umm no, she get shot with a poisoned dart, reverts to her "true" form, lays still in "death", then when Obi and Anakin walk away she gets up again and walks away as healthy as ever. Growing a new hand, even.

</sarcasm>

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-30 10:36pm

Aya wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:Obi-Wan slicing off Zam's hand in the club and then dragging her out into the street to question her. Anakin telling everyone to go back to their drinks (lots of contempt in his voice IMO) because it was Jedi business.

Just who are the Jedi accountable to?

Does Zam die?

Yes. Obi-Wan and Anakin drag her out to the streets. Before she can their questions, Jango nails her with a poison dart.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2002-12-01 12:56am

Ah, is it like a damn law of SW that the hot chicks have to die?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-12-01 01:03am

Aya wrote:Ah, is it like a damn law of SW that the hot chicks have to die?

Of course. Why do you think the future turns out bad and people turn to the dark side? Because all the hot chicks die.