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Sweet

I like the bit about Vader discovering his "true strength". It'll be interesting if James Luceno is going to have a play with the whole "weakened due to his injuries thing".

Vympel wrote:Sweet

I like the bit about Vader discovering his "true strength". It'll be interesting if James Luceno is going to have a play with the whole "weakened due to his injuries thing".

I would think his true strength is in causing fear and making people toe the line. He does this thorughout the OT afterall. Wherevere he goes there's fear and we saw a hint of that in the looks on people's faces on teh stardestroyer's bridge at the end of ROTS.

Frankly I don't understand the resitance to the Vader can never achieve his full potential after his injuries theme. Its not like he got a few scars or lost a limb. The guy is a torso stuck in a walking iron lung. I would think that would make Force using a bitch and he does pretty well for himself otherwise. You add the fact that he can't generate force lightning because of his implants and you have a further support to his condition being the cause of his not being able to supplant Palpatine and not achieve his potential. He's a sad broken man that wanted to be the most powerful jedi ever and ended up a cripple. Its a tragedy.

I am looking forward to this book with bated breath. Should prove very interesting as it portrays a point in time in Vader's development that we've had little information on.

Sounds like it will detail some early battles and development of conflicts after ROTS , might be tempted to buy this.

I'm looking forward to this quite a bit. Hopefully it might include some information on what the official Imperial version of Darth Vader's origin is.

I also might eventually pick up that LoE RotS omnibus as well.

On Vaders weakness.
Personally i think it’s logical, i mean he’s on a permanent life support system (possibly hes also sustained by Palpy),
after having been chopped up into bits. and losing his one true motivation to gain power (Padme) by killing her with his new gained DS power.

Also i loved th ROTS novelization so this should be good.

I have faith in Lucenco's writing and SW knowledge to pull off an interesting look into Vader's early years. Should also prove interesting when all three are read together...

I will buy this book. It's the first EU item to excite me in a long time...

Lucas has been saying all along that older Jedi are less powerful than younger Jedi and Vader is weaker because he's cybernetic. So it fits with his intent, it's just not given a very satisfactory explanation I guess.

I mean, ok, as an example Yoda uses the Force to go from hobbling on his cane to flipping around like crazy in battle. I could buy that you have to expend extra Force mana on making your body perform up to snuff as if you were in your physical prime I guess.

In Vader's case I guess the tendency is to assume that cybernetic parts would actually be more powerful than human flesh ones. Take Grevious for example... he seems pretty physically powerful for mostly droid, and he's even less flesh than Vader is apparently.

Grevious I'm sure is physically stronger as a cyborg than he would have been in flesh. He can deform metal with his fists and people hurt themselves trying to hit him, etc. Of course Grevious isn't a Force user, so that aspect of the comparison doesn't tell us anything.

Lucas seems to hold the idea that flesh is superior to mechanical though, so he sees it as a weakness, whereas many fans would probably think having a robot arm would make you stronger. It's the mystery of the Force and life I think.

Like if you have a robot arm you're less "alive" than if you aren't (according to Lucas's idea?). I'm sure amputees would beg to differ about this, but there you go.

*remembers the discussion about Jedi eating bags of twinkies to get more body mass and therefore more midichlorians*

So yeah, we'll see!

Stravo wrote:Frankly I don't understand the resitance to the Vader can never achieve his full potential after his injuries theme. Its not like he got a few scars or lost a limb. The guy is a torso stuck in a walking iron lung. I would think that would make Force using a bitch and he does pretty well for himself otherwise. You add the fact that he can't generate force lightning because of his implants and you have a further support to his condition being the cause of his not being able to supplant Palpatine and not achieve his potential. He's a sad broken man that wanted to be the most powerful jedi ever and ended up a cripple. Its a tragedy.

"Luminous beings are we Luke, not this crude matter." - Yoda.

Rule Number One of authorship: do not contradict yourself. A mystical Force that reaches above simple matter and everyday reality was much more powerful than this "integrity of your original flesh" bullshit. Its dumb and contradictory. All of the source material for the Force in RL religion in spirituality is about transcending physical reality and physical self. It totally smacks of revisionism, self-contradiction, and psuedoscientification of the Force.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
"Luminous beings are we Luke, not this crude matter." - Yoda.

Rule Number One of authorship: do not contradict yourself. A mystical Force that reaches above simple matter and everyday reality was much more powerful than this "integrity of your original flesh" bullshit. Its dumb and contradictory. All of the source material for the Force in RL religion in spirituality is about transcending physical reality and physical self. It totally smacks of revisionism, self-contradiction, and psuedoscientification of the Force.

In the ROTJ novelization Vader quotes this same phrase to Luke when Luke starts to cry when he unmasks Vader. It was Anakin's way of comforting his son when he thought that Luke was horrified by what he saw.

I always took it to mean that the true self is inside - as we saw at the end when he appears whole and unscarred as a spirit (now he's just creepy young Anakin because he's been in suspended animation for 20 years ) and as such the spirit is the true self and not the flesh. Flesh is transitory the spirit is forever which jibes with the immortality of Force ghosting.

In essence what I see in that quote was Yoda saying that we're more than just flesh. Remember Kenobi was weak with age in ANH. If Jedi were luminous beings not trapped by the failings of the flesh then Yoda and Obi Wan would be as spry and powerful as they were in the PT. Kenobi warns Vader that "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This required a release of the flesh that was holding Obi Wan back. Hardly an endorsement of the idea that Jedi are above and beyond the wekanesses of the flesh.

And here I was hoping for an exerpt

Stravo wrote:In the ROTJ novelization Vader quotes this same phrase to Luke when Luke starts to cry when he unmasks Vader. It was Anakin's way of comforting his son when he thought that Luke was horrified by what he saw.

I always took it to mean that the true self is inside - as we saw at the end when he appears whole and unscarred as a spirit (now he's just creepy young Anakin because he's been in suspended animation for 20 years ) and as such the spirit is the true self and not the flesh. Flesh is transitory the spirit is forever which jibes with the immortality of Force ghosting.

Ok? But its obvious it applies also to oneself in the Force.

Stravo wrote:In essence what I see in that quote was Yoda saying that we're more than just flesh. Remember Kenobi was weak with age in ANH. If Jedi were luminous beings not trapped by the failings of the flesh then Yoda and Obi Wan would be as spry and powerful as they were in the PT. Kenobi warns Vader that "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This required a release of the flesh that was holding Obi Wan back. Hardly an endorsement of the idea that Jedi are above and beyond the wekanesses of the flesh.

Really? Yoda? Sidious? Dooku?

The prequel just supports the fact that your physical infirmities don't matter even more (and incidentally makes GL's "Vader is a cripple" crap sound stupid even more).

Stravo wrote:In essence what I see in that quote was Yoda saying that we're more than just flesh. Remember Kenobi was weak with age in ANH. If Jedi were luminous beings not trapped by the failings of the flesh then Yoda and Obi Wan would be as spry and powerful as they were in the PT.

Yoda is not significantly weaker in TESB than in the PT. He heaved the X-Wing out of the water with impunity. That he wasn't hopping around like a crack fiend probably is more for Luke's benifit than his own. Unaided by the Force, Yoda has always been slow and weak. In ROTJ of course, he has become sick.

The example often used for Obi-Wan's weakness in his age is his fight with Vader, and that they were twirling and hopping around like in the PT. But consider the AOTC novelization: Jedi often use Force-barriers to limit each others movements in combat. With years to practice and hone their dueling techniques (something the Jedi never really did much of prior to the re-emergence of the Sith in TPM) it may have been the reason for their rather tame duel. It's as good a reason as any for Kenobi giving up as soon as he did, rather than waiting for Vader to overpower him (aside from wanted to spook Luke).

Kenobi warns Vader that "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This required a release of the flesh that was holding Obi Wan back. Hardly an endorsement of the idea that Jedi are above and beyond the wekanesses of the flesh.

He probably could've added "from a certain point of view" onto the end of that. Becoming one with the Force no doubt has advantages that have nothing to with how old/young or strong/weak you are physically.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:In essence what I see in that quote was Yoda saying that we're more than just flesh. Remember Kenobi was weak with age in ANH. If Jedi were luminous beings not trapped by the failings of the flesh then Yoda and Obi Wan would be as spry and powerful as they were in the PT. Kenobi warns Vader that "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This required a release of the flesh that was holding Obi Wan back. Hardly an endorsement of the idea that Jedi are above and beyond the wekanesses of the flesh.

Really? Yoda? Sidious? Dooku?

The prequel just supports the fact that your physical infirmities don't matter even more (and incidentally makes GL's "Vader is a cripple" crap sound stupid even more).

But Yoda is clearly exhausted after a 2 minute duel with Dooku. Dooku is exhausted from figthing both Anakin and Obi Wan when Yoda shows up and in the ROTS he is losing it mid point through the duel with Anakin because he is simply too old for this physical stuff. His words not mine. The masters can overcome their physical weaknesses for short spurts of time but they are NOT what they used to be.

Yoda clearly is old and tired even in the PT as he needs his staff to walk just as Palpatine needs his staff to walk in ROTJ. The key to Force usage is that these physcial limitations to age and illness can be overcome for awhile but never go away completely. The Jedi and Sith are as much trapped by their flesh as anyone else.

Hell for all their force power Obi Wan and Anakin were like little bitches on the floor after taking a whomping. If Obi Wan were truly a luminous being who could effortlessly overcome the limitations of his flesh he would have gotten up after the lightsaber wounds and kept on fighting. Nistead he lay there even when a mutli ton column was coming right down at his head.

In the end age does all these guys in or Palpatine would not be so desperate to find the key to immortality and Obi Wan would not have had to have Vader sneer "Your powers are weak old man." nor would Palpy NEED a younger Apprentice if age and Vader's injuries were not an issue.

Stravo wrote:But Yoda is clearly exhausted after a 2 minute duel with Dooku. Dooku is exhausted from figthing both Anakin and Obi Wan when Yoda shows up and in the ROTS he is losing it mid point through the duel with Anakin because he is simply too old for this physical stuff. His words not mine. The masters can overcome their physical weaknesses for short spurts of time but they are NOT what they used to be.

Yoda clearly is old and tired even in the PT as he needs his staff to walk just as Palpatine needs his staff to walk in ROTJ. The key to Force usage is that these physcial limitations to age and illness can be overcome for awhile but never go away completely. The Jedi and Sith are as much trapped by their flesh as anyone else.

Hell for all their force power Obi Wan and Anakin were like little bitches on the floor after taking a whomping. If Obi Wan were truly a luminous being who could effortlessly overcome the limitations of his flesh he would have gotten up after the lightsaber wounds and kept on fighting. Nistead he lay there even when a mutli ton column was coming right down at his head.

In all these cases, the older person is still more powerful and transcendent; I never said age was irrelevent, just that it was a weakness that could be overcome.

Moreover, age leads to what, less vitality, strength, vigor, and endurance?
Makes on arthritic?

None of that is comparable to Vader's injuries. Vader's injuries healed; he is not suffering the initial pain of maiming indefinitely for twenty years. It is the pain of injury which disables Obi-Wan and possibly the cutting of muscles (the Force appears able to boost exertion and acceleration already applied by the body in someway; Force jumps require a real initial jump; Jedi do not levitate, etc. - he needs his muscles). Vader's quadrapelgia is a non-issue; his prosthesis corrects it without any exertion on his part. His breathing? He's got bionic lungs; he need not exert any Force strength to correct that. He has bionic limbs; why would these injuries hold him back?

All you examples rely on the use of the Force to compensate for problems; why would Vader need to use his strength to survive or move? He has bionic parts to do all that for him. And his bionic parts ought to be stronger and more durable than his natural ones anyway. Anakin is only forty-two in ANH; forty-five in TESB, and forty-six in ROTJ. Hardly the stage where physical infirmities become extreme and would require exertion of telekinesis to assist.

As I pointed out before - if its the loss of physical mass, less massive Jedi should be less powerful. It doesn't make any sense considering what we know - Yoda and superior bionics to flesh in SW - and requires counterintuitive and/or complex rationalization. That's a failure or brainfart on GL's part. Not my fault. Because he writes them doesn't make it not stupid or poorly thought-out.

Stravo wrote:In the end age does all these guys in or Palpatine would not be so desperate to find the key to immortality and Obi Wan would not have had to have Vader sneer "Your powers are weak old man." nor would Palpy NEED a younger Apprentice if age and Vader's injuries were not an issue.

Palpatine is desperate to be immortal? Last I saw that was just a ploy for Anakin's apprenticehood.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:-SNIP-As I pointed out before - if its the loss of physical mass, less massive Jedi should be less powerful. It doesn't make any sense considering what we know - Yoda and superior bionics to flesh in SW - and requires counterintuitive and/or complex rationalization. That's a failure or brainfart on GL's part. Not my fault. Because he writes them doesn't make it not stupid or poorly thought-out.

God I hope GL won't say its a mass loss issue. I take it that the core of the problem lies in the presence of the cybernetics as that is what GL focusses on in his ROTJ commentary and slightly less in ANH commentary (Where he pissed some other folks off here when he describes Vader as a pathetic figure in ANH)

Now bear with me because I am not scientifucally minded, but I recall in Physics class that a circuit has to overcome a certain amount of resistance to let the charge continue. My working theory is that the presence of cybernetics (being unliving and all that jazz) created a certain Impedence in a Force User (I hope I used the correct term) that must be overcome to properly let the Force flow. So what if Vader's impedence or resistance is so high because he is basically a torso attached to an iron lung that the Force simply doesn't flow for him, when it does flow its just not as powerful as it could be.

Think to Stover's description of Vader first awakening and when he tries to use the Force - "Like a painter without sight, a scuptor without hands, " or somethng to that effect. This not someone who lost his power, its someone who is no longer in touch with it.

But that's my two cents absent GL making me look like an ass and saying something more contrived and ridiculous.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:In the end age does all these guys in or Palpatine would not be so desperate to find the key to immortality and Obi Wan would not have had to have Vader sneer "Your powers are weak old man." nor would Palpy NEED a younger Apprentice if age and Vader's injuries were not an issue.

Palpatine is desperate to be immortal? Last I saw that was just a ploy for Anakin's apprenticehood.

Curse you IP, I will not cite DE I just refuse to damnit.

Stravo wrote:God I hope GL won't say its a mass loss issue. I take it that the core of the problem lies in the presence of the cybernetics as that is what GL focusses on in his ROTJ commentary and slightly less in ANH commentary (Where he pissed some other folks off here when he describes Vader as a pathetic figure in ANH)

That is stupid. Why would cybernetics "jam" the Force? Like I said; if it works like that there should be a proportional loss from the lost hands. And why not produce cloned parts since its obvious cloning technology is well understood in SW.

Ugh. GL doesn't think out anything. He's stupid sometimes.

Stravo wrote:Now bear with me because I am not scientifucally minded, but I recall in Physics class that a circuit has to overcome a certain amount of resistance to let the charge continue. My working theory is that the presence of cybernetics (being unliving and all that jazz) created a certain Impedence in a Force User (I hope I used the correct term) that must be overcome to properly let the Force flow. So what if Vader's impedence or resistance is so high because he is basically a torso attached to an iron lung that the Force simply doesn't flow for him, when it does flow its just not as powerful as it could be.

Then the presence of non-living matter, especially robotic shit, should dampen the Force. Jedi should be weak in the sterile confines of a starship in deep space, surrounded with little more than machinery and nothingness. Coruscant should be a bleak place to use the Force; odd they put the temple there. There's no real difference between sitting, working, and living in giant robotic machinery and having it attached to your body. The proximity is still there. Would you say Jedi in power suits would be necessarily weaker?

And again the clone parts shit comes up. GL didn't think this out at all.

Stravo wrote:Think to Stover's description of Vader first awakening and when he tries to use the Force - "Like a painter without sight, a scuptor without hands, " or somethng to that effect. This not someone who lost his power, its someone who is no longer in touch with it.

I try to avoid using figurative language to describe precise technical relations.

Stravo wrote:But that's my two cents absent GL making me look like an ass and saying something more contrived and ridiculous.

I didn't say we didn't have to live with his shitty creations sometimes, all I said it was shitty and not thought-out.

Stravo wrote:Curse you IP, I will not cite DE I just refuse to damnit.

I knew I caught you with that one.

Kurgan wrote: I mean, ok, as an example Yoda uses the Force to go from hobbling on his cane to flipping around like crazy in battle. I could buy that you have to expend extra Force mana on making your body perform up to snuff as if you were in your physical prime I guess.

This is referred to when Dooku is fighting in the RotS novelization- all his years are described as dropping away when he draws into the Force for his 'last stand' so to speak.

I like IP's idea of it being all in Vader's head more than anything. Firstly, luminous beings, not crude matter (pinching Luke's arm for emphasis).

Secondly, the RotS novelization quote can prima facie be construed to mean that him being more than half machine means he doesn't have the power he used to. But- he is drawing on that power to reach out and crush Palpatine ("the shadow"). Turn the page, he doesn't really *Want* to crush Palpatine at all. This fits in perfectly with his apparent confusion in TESB and RotJ- in TESB he's making a play for Luke to overthrow the Emperor, and in RotJ he's all "I must obey my master."

I think he wants Luke to have something else to hold on to.

So he's treating Vader as a cripple, rather than a man who's bionic.. ie: his robot parts make him every bit as "able bodied" as an unmaimed person. I think if anything Vader should be MORE fit than a normal human, but Lucas seems to want to treat him like Edward Scissorhands or Terry Shiavo or something. I agree, it's frustrating.

It's not like Vader is the equivalent of a person in a coma, he can walk around and do all that stuff. Sure his suit might be a bit clumsy for taking a crap or having sexual intercourse, but for fighting? No big deal right?

Since Lucas didn't have the cheap CGI to make Vader flipping and flying around in 1977 but now he does and he uses it, we have to deal with this discrepancy and his rationalizations.

I dunno, it'd be one thing to say that Star Wars doesn't have the tech to clone individual limbs (without making a whole person and hacking off their arm to graft to somebody else) and their cybernetics are crappy, but at least in the latter case we know that's not true. We have Grevious for crying out loud. We have C3PO, a mere protocol droid, exhibiting amazing feats in the Droid Factory and he's just a glorified butler.

Vympel: Ah, so perhaps Anakin/Vader is just confused and psychologically goofing on himself? Could be. That would help explain a lot, rather than being some universal law than: cut off limbs = weaker in the Force.

Vympel: Ah, so perhaps Anakin/Vader is just confused and psychologically goofing on himself? Could be. That would help explain a lot, rather than being some universal law than: cut off limbs = weaker in the Force.

If he really is psyching himself out, the psychological trauma from knowing that he murdered Padme would probably play a big part in that. After all, he loved her so much that he turned to the dark side to save her, and yet when that love became possession he didn't hesitate to choke her.

I wish Luceno would just stick to writing reference material. They should've given this one to Stover.

So where does this "Vader is weak" stuff come from? The fact that he can't do backflips and Olympic gymnastics? He throws people around like ragdolls and hurls huge machine parts around in the OT, not to mention absorbing blaster shots...always seemed quite powerful to me.

So where does this "Vader is weak" stuff come from? The fact that he can't do backflips and Olympic gymnastics? He throws people around like ragdolls and hurls huge machine parts around in the OT, not to mention absorbing blaster shots...always seemed quite powerful to me.