If the entirety of the US and Russian nuclear arsenals...

Acclamator · Post by **Acclamator** » 2002-12-01 07:48am

..went off on Coruscant, what would the loss of life rank as? (As it would be classified by the inhabitants of Coruscant themselves)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-01 08:48am

Small to Medium sized Terriorst Outrage given the amount of Megaton capable stuff around Courscant

Remeber fokes these are things DESIGNED to take GIGATON level blasts and surive somewhat intanct, The very design of Courscant would lend aginst ALOT of damage simply because anywhere you drop the bombs your only gonna wreak 1KM or so

However the Radioative aftereffects....

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-01 02:32pm

A little something i prepared earlier...

1/ Blast radii

Firstly consider that to ensure total destruction of current, heavily built concrete structures probably requires ~50psi (20Psi for severe damage). For a 1.5MT weapon that extends out to ~1.6Km (const_bl ~0.14).

Now consider that if a 2 km building were constructed today it would probably require all steel construction, which results in much higher resistance (shear strength ~300Mpa, compared to 23Mpa for high strength concrete), requiring at least ~100-250Psi for severe damage-total demolition.

Now consider Corouscant’s buildings reach easily into the >8Km range, undoubtedly using dense/exotic materials and infinitely more advanced engineering techniques than in use today. I think it is safe to say we are looking at an order of magnitude increase in resistance.

The 1000Psi blast radius for a 1.5Mt weapon (const_bl ~0.017) extends out to ~0.2Km. The 2500Psi blast radius for the same weapon (const_bl ~0.0092) extends out to 0.1Km.

Given the size and spacing of the buildings on Coruscant, the only way to bring down a building is to place the weapon very close to or on the building itself, in which case neighbouring buildings would probably not by brought down by the blast.
Consider that for the average 50-100kt MIRV, blast radius for 1000Psi is ~60-80m, blast radius for 2500Psi is ~30-40m!.

2/ How large a total area they could demolish?

For the 1.5Mt (minuteman ICBM’s of which US had ~1000 a decade or so ago, half with 1.5MT warheads, half with three 0.5-1Mt warheads).

Using 1000Psi: 500 1.5Mt devices (~60Km^2) + 1500 1Mt devices (~140Km^2) i.e total of ~200Km^2.
Using 2500Psi the total area drops to (17Km^2) + (38km^2) i.e ~55Km^2.

Include the small 50-100Kt range warheads ~33x24x10 (SSBN’s X missiles p/b X MIRV’s p/m)

1000 Psi: ~90-160Km^2
2500 Psi: ~20-40Km^2

Finally add in the bomber force (332 bombers, four 1 MT warheads each):

1000 Psi: ~120km^2
2500 Psi: ~30Km^2

Total US arsenal: 480Km^2 for 1000Psi, 125Km^2 for 2500Psi.

Double that for the old Soviet arsenal and your looking at grand total of ~960Km^2 if 1000Psi can bring, or 250Km^2 for 2500Psi .

Which is <0.0008% of the total surface.

Even if we were extremely generous and said only 100Psi was required we would be looking at a total of 25,000Km^2 destroyed (5000Km^2 for minutemen, 4000Km^2 for SSBN’s, 3500Km^2 from bombers, doubled up to include Soviet arsenal)

Which is <0.02% of the total surface.

You will note that even with the 100Psi estimate the total surface area demolished relatively tiny. And some on SB.com conclude 95-98% casuality rate...(with no calculations to back that up of course)

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-01 02:46pm

Damn how I wish there was an edit button to correct my 'Yoda speak'

"How large a total area they could demolish?"

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-01 04:48pm

Even at their peak strength, the total arsenals of both nations combined where equal to maybe 20 Gigatons. I doubt it would even make the news outside of the effected sector.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-12-01 05:02pm

The loss of life may not be too substantial by Coruscant standards, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be accompanied with massive outrage. The 9/11 attacks only killed 3,000, a relatively small number by American standards, but they sparked massive outrage in America.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-01 05:26pm

Edit: I missed out the factor of 4 in the expression for the surface area of a sphere

, the percentage of the total surface affected should read 0.0002% and then 0.005% assuming 100Psi is sufficent.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-01 06:02pm

I've had a thought which may make this easier to visualise. Consider the example of a 1MT detonation in Detroit that Mike used in the Edam debate.

Now consider that the area of Detroit is ~350Km^2, and Coruscant has a total surface area (assuming it’s the same diameter as Earth) of ~5.1e8Km^2.

I.e. Coruscant has a surface area approximately one and a half million times that of Detroit.

As the total US and Soviet arsenals consisted of around 17,500 warheads (most were kiloton range weapons but we'll assume they are all 1MT) only 1/85th of the city can be hit as equivalent to a 1MT detonation over Detroit (<500,000 fatalities or 11%). Which basically means (assuming a uniform population density) 11% of 1/85 of the population or 0.13%.

Yes thats a staggering 0.13% of the population, using a 20th century model of an urbanised area that is not even remotely close to the multi-Km urban conglomerate on Coruscant.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-01 06:06pm

hehe, this is great, Courtesy of E1701's 'scientific opinion'

I think overall, we'd be looking at only 5-10% immediate casualties, followed up by another 20-30% from radiation exposure only hours later, and then afterwards, as high as 70% of those survivors dying over the course of the following weeks, from secondary building collapses, fires, starvation, dehydration, and fallout dosages.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-01 06:13pm

The last is espcilly funny
"starvation"

Starvation? WTF? See any Farms on Courscant? All thier foods is shiped from offworld and they have a month of supplies ready to go

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-02 12:07am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Even at their peak strength, the total arsenals of both nations combined where equal to maybe 20 Gigatons. I doubt it would even make the news outside of the effected sector.

I doubt it was ever that high, considering that the overwhelming majority of nuclear weapons were sub-megaton.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-02 03:33am

The casuality estimate based on 1979 detroit is a very generous upper limit, but you would'nt think it reading some of the replies at sb.com.

Firstly I've used 1988 warhead numbers, second I've assumed they were all 1MT devices, and third when did Coruscant look like Detroit!.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-02 04:56am

A lot would depend on the secondary damage caused, and the exact placement of the nukes. A nuke taking out the top of a mega scraper won't do that much, but if it goes off near the bottom and causes sufficient stuctural damage, an entire multi km high building could go down. The 2500 psi figures would still result in something like 5 billion casualties at the height of Coruscant's population, the 100 psi figures causing somewhere around 130 billion ouchies. This is presuming that regional shield generators couldn't work to dampen the effects.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2002-12-02 04:09pm

Hehe this is great, I wonder if Darth Wong has seen this:

Should other targets be foregone, recovery may be quicker, but 180,000-500,000 buildings would be destroyed, with 180 billion to 500 billion killed. 30-83 times Earth's population. Equivelent to 30-80 Base Delta Zero casualty ratios, on the capital world of the Republic/Empire itself. 1,440,000 to 4,000,000 cubic kilometers of buildings destroyed.

You'd think when the the estimated 'outcome' of the entire US/Russian arsenal (5000-10,000MT) is "30-80 BDZ casualty ratios" alarm bells would ring?
Or how about strolling into in the Imperial palace with MIRV in tow?

Stormtrooper Cmdr: "You there, halt!, state your business!"
*Wave of hand* "These aren't the nukes your looking for".....

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-02 05:07pm

Base Delta Zero is only succseful when 100% of the target popluas has been exterminated....

So... 3000%-8000%? Damn where are all these people coming from?

Wait wait! Maybe Courscant's populational all have extra lives!

*Insert Mario Theme music
Here we see your avarage Imperal Citizin.... lets drop a piano on him... (Musical BONG sound), And look he's perfecty unharmed! Why according to the giant white numbers hanging above his head we could do this THREE MORE TIMES!

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-12-02 07:11pm

The tragedy would be the loss of life, not the loss of buildings. A nuke may not be able to affect a building, but set off ay ground level it is more than enough to kill the people that are just walking about. If they are spaced evenly across the planet to cover as large an area as possible, they would be able to inflict quite a bit of damage. Of course, it's just a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the population of Courasant. But any large scale loss of life would be a tragedy.