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"Jedi in their Prime?"
Posted: 2005-06-12 03:45am
by Kurgan
Didn't Lucas tell us that when he was making the prequels he wanted to show us "Jedi in their prime"? That instead of "an old cripple, an old man and a barely trained kid" we'd be seeing the Jedi Knights at their height?
Instead, as I'm reading the ROTS novelisation (only about 1/3rd of the way through), apparently this "clouding" this "shroud of the Dark Side" has hung over the Force (from the Jedi's point of view, according to Obi-Wan's thoughts) has been going on for "almost a decade and a half"!
So in other words, even in TPM (13 years prior) they weren't operating at "full steam." Supposedly Obi-Wan remember in his childhood the force seemed less "foggy" training at the Jedi Temple as a child.
Is this just bullshit revisionism, or does it gel with what everybody else knew about this already? Comments? Am I misinterpreting?
Because it seems like all these allowances are being made for why the Jedi are beaten "so easily" and why things like Droidekas and Stormtroopers are any threat to them. And it makes exaggerations like the Clone Wars (animated series) and certain other EU sources with their high level force powers and Matrix-like Jedi abilities seem even more silly.
I thought we were going to see the Jedi at their height, but now it appears we actually weren't, and we may never see this... except in the EU (no reason why the Jedi won't be hampered in the post-Palpatine era, right?).
Posted: 2005-06-12 03:56am
by HemlockGrey
except in the EU (no reason why the Jedi won't be hampered in the post-Palpatine era, right?).
You would think so, but then the EU writers brought in an alien race that suppressed the Force, and another that couldn't be sensed by the Jedi...
And, anyway, I thought the PT does show them at more or less their peak, with merely their precog abilities diminished. Frankly, I think the EU blew expectations of the Jedi way out of proportion. Never in the movies are they portrayed as being demigods or invincible warriors, but in the PT they dispense a consider amount of whoopass. Consider: If you gave an ordinary guy a lightsaber and put him up against a half dozen droids, what would he do? He'd die almost immediately, but the Jedi are only killed when surprised or vastly outnumbered, so it's not like they're pussies.
Posted: 2005-06-12 04:00am
by The Grim Squeaker
“HemlockGrey” wrote:except in the EU (no reason why the Jedi won’t be hampered in the post-Palpatine era, right?).
You would think so, but then the EU writers brought in an alien race that suppressed the Force, a
nd another that couldn’t be sensed by the Jedi...
And, anyway, I thought the PT does show them at more or less their peak, with merely their precog abilities diminished. Frankly, I think the EU blew expectations of the Jedi way out of proportion. Never in the movies are they portrayed as being demigods or invincible warriors, but in the PT they dispense a consider amount of whoopass. Consider: If you gave an ordinary guy a lightsaber and put him up against a half dozen droids, what would he do? He’d die almost immediately, but the Jedi are only killed when surprised or vastly outnumbered, so it’s not like they’re pussies.
What race was that, i only knew of the Vong? do you mean the Voxyn’s?
Also the NJO in general (Except for the “Unifying force”) horribly pussified the Jedi.
Posted: 2005-06-12 04:03am
by Noble Ire
Actually, the Jedi abilities shown in PT EU for the most part match up well with the movies.
As has been stated, the clouding of the force has to do with precog which, while important to Jedi fighting skills, would probably not be effected enough to prove severly detramental.) THis is unless of course a Sith lord is staring you in the face, about to attack. I have no doubt that Kit, Tiin, and Agen died so quickly in part due to offensive dampening.
Posted: 2005-06-12 07:24am
by Manus Celer Dei
the .303 bookworm wrote:HemlockGrey wrote:except in the EU (no reason why the Jedi won’t be hampered in the post-Palpatine era, right?).
You would think so, but then the EU writers brought in an alien race that suppressed the Force, a
nd another that couldn’t be sensed by the Jedi...
And, anyway, I thought the PT does show them at more or less their peak, with merely their precog abilities diminished. Frankly, I think the EU blew expectations of the Jedi way out of proportion. Never in the movies are they portrayed as being demigods or invincible warriors, but in the PT they dispense a consider amount of whoopass. Consider: If you gave an ordinary guy a lightsaber and put him up against a half dozen droids, what would he do? He’d die almost immediately, but the Jedi are only killed when surprised or vastly outnumbered, so it’s not like they’re pussies.
What race was that, i only knew of the Vong? do you mean the Voxyn’s?
Also the NJO in general (Except for the “Unifying force”) horribly pussified the Jedi.
The Vong couldn't be sensed, and the ysalamari (sp?) supressed the Force. I think that's what he's referring to.
Posted: 2005-06-12 09:02am
by Darth Wong
In TPM, they see a hangar full of battledroids and Qui-Gon calmly says "it won't be a problem". In ROTS, a half-dozen clonetroopers are able to easily gun down Ki Adi Mundi. Mind you, a clonetrooper is superior to a battledroid, but it does seem that Jedi are more formidable in TPM than in AOTC or ROTS. And that blurring speed-run that they do in the TradeFed battleship is not repeated in AOTC or ROTS.
Posted: 2005-06-12 09:32am
by Shroom Man 777
Well, for one, Ki got caught with his pants down and got shot in the ass and stuff.
Posted: 2005-06-12 09:53am
by Lord of the Farce
Darth Wong wrote:And that blurring speed-run that they do in the TradeFed battleship is not repeated in AOTC or ROTS.
And just imagine what would happen if a
single Jedi used that power to run a lap around the inside of the Geonosian arena, with a lightsabre held out in each hand. Can anyone say
"masses of bisected droids"?
IMHO, this is evidence enough that the "shroud of the Dark Side" affects more than just the Jedi's pre-cog abilities.
Posted: 2005-06-12 10:04am
by Fw 190
Didn't Lucas tell us that when he was making the prequels he wanted to show us "Jedi in their prime"? That instead of "an old cripple, an old man and a barely trained kid" we'd be seeing the Jedi Knights at their height?
I thought Lucas wanted to show Knights and Masters fully trained in the Force and lightsabre combat, not necessarily the Jedi Order at its height. In the OT Vader was a cripple (Lucas’s imagination) who walked around swinging his lightsabre. Luke looked clumsy with his lightsabre because he received less training than Jedi during the Old Republic. With the prequels, Lucas had the time frame and the technology to show fully trained Jedi.
Because it seems like all these allowances are being made for why the Jedi are beaten "so easily" and why things like Droidekas and Stormtroopers are any threat to them. And it makes exaggerations like the Clone Wars (animated series) and certain other EU sources with their high level force powers and Matrix-like Jedi abilities seem even more silly.
A lightsabre blade can only be in one place at one time. I imagine it would be very difficult to deflect dozens of bolts coming at you from multiple directions. To my knowledge only Yoda and Mace displayed extreme Force powers in the Clone Wars cartoon. I think Jedi in the cartoons and EU have been wanked by the authors.
In TPM, they see a hangar full of battledroids and Qui-Gon calmly says "it won't be a problem". In ROTS, a half-dozen clonetroopers are able to easily gun down Ki Adi Mundi. Mind you, a clonetrooper is superior to a battledroid, but it does seem that Jedi are more formidable in TPM than in AOTC or ROTS.
Did the Clonetrooper blasters display higher rates of fire against Ki Adi Mundi than the battledroids did against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan? I know they have a full automatic setting.
Posted: 2005-06-12 10:07am
by The Grim Squeaker
“Fw 190” wrote:
Because it seems like all these allowances are being made for why the Jedi are beaten “so easily” and why things like Droidekas and Stormtroopers are any threat to them. And it makes exaggerations like the Clone Wars (animated series) and certain other EU sources with their high level force powers and Matrix-like Jedi abilities seem even more silly.
A lightsabre blade can only be in one place at one time. I imagine it would be very difficult to deflect dozens of bolts coming at you from multiple directions. To my knowledge only Yoda and Mace displayed extreme Force powers in the Clone Wars cartoon. I think Jedi in the cartoons and EU have been wanked by the authors.
When exactly have the Jedi been wanked in the novels?
Posted: 2005-06-12 10:51am
by Anarchist Bunny
I seem to remember something from a KJA book about Jedi pushing a trio of Star Destroyer in orbit arround the Jedi Temple, light years away.
Posted: 2005-06-12 10:55am
by Lord Revan
Anarchist Bunny wrote:I seem to remember something from a KJA book about Jedi pushing a trio of Star Destroyer in orbit arround the Jedi Temple, light years away.
you're probaly talking about Darksaber were 32 Jedi pushed a fleet of SDs out of the Yavin system.
Posted: 2005-06-12 11:05am
by JediMaster415
Lord Revan wrote:Anarchist Bunny wrote:I seem to remember something from a KJA book about Jedi pushing a trio of Star Destroyer in orbit arround the Jedi Temple, light years away.
you're probaly talking about Darksaber were 32 Jedi pushed a fleet of SDs out of the Yavin system.
It took 32 Jedi, around a place that (I've heard) was built to amplify a Force-user's power in the first place and the person everyone was channeling their power through died in the process.
If Dorsk had done it himself, with only his own power, that would be wanking. But having damn near every Jedi the galaxy can offer working together doesn't seem like wanking to me.
Posted: 2005-06-12 11:14am
by The Grim Squeaker
“snas” wrote:
I seem to remember something from a KJA book about Jedi pushing a trio of Star Destroyer in orbit arround the Jedi Temple, light years away.
They were using a network of Sith temples built by Exar Kun (Ancient & very powerful Sith lord).
The process turned the jedi chanelling the energy into a burned out husk (Dorsk 81).
Posted: 2005-06-12 02:10pm
by Trooper TK12746
Especially given that according to the Young Jedi Knights series, one Sith Master caused a group of suns to go supernova with the Force to destroy a pursuing Old Republic fleet.
Posted: 2005-06-12 02:33pm
by The Grim Squeaker
Trooper TK12746 wrote:Especially given that according to the Young Jedi Knights series, one Sith Master caused a group of suns to go supernova with the Force to destroy a pursuing Old Republic fleet.
With the help of a specially designed Dreadnought
Posted: 2005-06-12 02:45pm
by Trooper TK12746
No, according to Brakiss, one Sith Master did it with just the force. And either way that is a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord.
Posted: 2005-06-13 01:00pm
by petesampras
To make Jedi into one man army demigods you either need to increase their speed to ludicrous levels ( which would look silly ) or raise there other force powers like telekinesis massively ( which would mean there would be little point using light sabres ).
Uber power does not necessarily work well in a movie. Imagine how dull a Culture space battle would be in a movie.
Posted: 2005-06-15 03:46pm
by Cykeisme
It's possible that the "shroud of the Dark Side" was referring mainly to the fact that the Jedi were unable to use long-term precognition, and could not detect farway things. The inability to feel the creation of a clone army seemed particularly disturbing to Yoda and Mace.
On the other hand, they did discuss telling the Senate that their "ability to use the Force has diminished", which sounded quite general.. they use the Force to do all sorts of things.
As for Ki-Adi-Mundi, I maintain that defeating the clone trooper squad was well within the limits of his capabilities. It was the shock of betrayal that did him in.
Posted: 2005-06-15 04:06pm
by The Grim Squeaker
Trooper TK12746 wrote:No, according to Brakiss, one Sith Master did it with just the force. And either way that is a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord.
Brakiss was giving a "power of the dark side" speech to a new and promising student, it's very likely that he simply took the Naga Sadow case and simply left out a few details.