StarDestroyer.Net BBS

A certain movie critic/political talk show host out of Seattle (who shall remain nameless) reviewed Revenge of the Sith, and while he did recommend it with three stars, he insists it has repeated uncouth and completely excessive potshots on President Bush and the war on terror.

Examples that he used were:
"If you are not with me you are against me." "Only a Sith uses such absolutes."
and
"So, this is how liberty dies: with cheers and applause."

What do you think?

I'll give my own comments later so they don't upset the initial votes.

It's all bullshit.

Well, the "You're with me or you're my enemy" line is almost undoubtably aimed at Bush, but well, thats it, and I really don't care either way.

What about the "No, its pointing out the inherent weakness in the democratic system that has been taken advantage of by potential tyrants since Ancient Greece" option?

If you're going to relate Palpatine's political machinations with Bush's actions, then you're really reaching. IIRC, the general outlay of Palpatine's political machinations were already planned well before Bush got elected, although that could be GL just changing his story again. Yes, there are similiarities in the way both have abused power, but Palpatine's crimes are lightyears beyond anything Bush has done. If anything, it's more of a critique of humanity's mindless, irrational, sheep mentality in response to fear.

On the other hand, my spine tingled when I heard Anakin's totally out-of-place "If you are not with me, you are against me!", the same as when I heard Nute Gunray's name the first time.

Badme wrote:On the other hand, my spine tingled when I heard Anakin's totally out-of-place "If you are not with me, you are against me!", the same as when I heard Nute Gunray's name the first time.

Technically it was actually "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Badme wrote:On the other hand, my spine tingled when I heard Anakin's totally out-of-place "If you are not with me, you are against me!", the same as when I heard Nute Gunray's name the first time.

Technically it was actually "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

Man, you are nitpicky.

Whatever. Still had that same 'Awkwardly-out-of-place' vibe, which made me immediately think of Bush's WoT speech. Other than Nute Gunray, I found the whole idea of Bush-as-Palpatine preposterous, but that one line...well...

Well, yeah, there were obvious critiques- "If you're not with me, you're my enemy" is more obvious than that I have a face. Still, there's not much more than that, like the Jedi Temple looking like the Twin Towers with the pillar of smoke coming out, and most of those were probably added after he planned it out to remind people. It's more of an inditement(sp?) of all tyrants, particularly Caesar, than Bush specifically. It's simply that Bush is the perfect target for that sort of criticism in the world today.

I guess it's one of those "Does anyone really give a shit?" instances. If someone saw it, and didn't think there was any serious agenda, would it really matter if GL did have one? (On a related note, wasn't there one website that jokingly insisted that the Star Wars movies are just a giant metaphor for gay sex?)

Yes, it targeted Bush directly.

Don't you know, Bush invented that line?

"If you're not with me you're against me" has never been used by anyone else before. How can it be anything BUT a direct reference?

Lucas mapped out this plot in the 70s and based Palpatines rise to power on, among other things, the rise of Nazi Germany.

The fact that such parallels can be drawn at all to the Bush administration is troubling...

Perhaps the Pro-Bush folks feel a twinge of Freudian guilt whenever there is a hint of totalatarianism or despotic themes in entertainment.

All similarities between the Empire and the Bush Administration are coincidental.

Sidious: Brilliant, cunning, political/military strategist.
Bush: Erm... Not so much.

Sidious: The devious puppetmaster.
Bush: The not-so-devious puppet.

Sidious: Know's he's doing evil.
Bush: Thinks he's doing good.

Sidious: Bends the truth to suit him.
Bush: Outright lies.

Sidious: Charismatic.
Bush: Unintelligible.

Sidious: Brutally oppresses everyone.
Bush: Is really, really amicable to members of his own factions.

Sidious: Makes big business his bitch.
Bush: Is big business' bitch.

Sidious: Very pro-cloning.
Bush: Very anti-cloning.

There are certainly more, but suffice to say I don't find the two figures to be very analogous at all.

Stravo wrote:Perhaps the Pro-Bush folks feel a twinge of Freudian guilt whenever there is a hint of totalatarianism or despotic themes in entertainment.

More like insecure that any media portrayl of Bush as a fool/tyrant/despot/or whatever else he's being called now, will topple the deck of cards. And coincidentally, the ones that I've heard so far who seem to harp on such an issue the most are neo-conservative types, not to say that others don't. It just seems, though, that in the past few months, conservative media folks will pick up such trivial issues and then make them an issue and discuss them and then moan about the liberal media bias against The Sovereign Lord Bush. Then there's the crowd who just likes controversy and the crowd who has to psyco analyse every little inch as if they were a lit major because they're insecure with something themselves (the race issue à la Phantom Menace and AOTC?).

Lucas has repeatedly said his basic story line was already outlined and draws influence from Nazi Germany, the Roman Republic, the Nixon years, and other turbulent times in history.

I don't really care. I don't see any resemblances between Bush and Palpatine (Darth Raptor's list was great).

As for the line "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.", that reminded me of Jesus in Matt 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me".

No way. Lucas had many of these ideas, as i understand it, in the 1970s for fuck's sake. Bush, i think, was still drunk off his ass and dodging the draft when Lucas created Palpatine, and so any similarities are either guilty feelinsg from Republicans or imagined.

Even the line, "Your either with me or against me", that isnt from Bush, it isnt even from Jesus, it's older than that. Hell i think i heard people like in ancient Rome and Alexander the Great's time saying basically the same phrase. It's really just a common human term, probably tens of thousands of years old or more. Bush is just one of the narrow minded twats who uses it.

Anyone who truely sees a similarity between Bush and Palpatine needs to ask themselves...why is a character clearly base,d not on Bush, but on Adulf Hitler...reminding you of our president? Hmmm, makes you think yes?

I doubt that Lucas deliberately set out to make a film sending up the Bush adminstration. However I can't help but wonder if maybe he took the opportunity to take a shot at Bush's 'War on Terror' when it presented itself. Then again, maybe it's all coincidence and the whole scenario, like most of the Star Wars mythos, is based on a much older archetype.

Maybe in illustrating old archetypes (or whatever), Georgy decided to drop a little weeny example that's relevant to modern events. He's got the Ceasar Senate/Empire thing and the Nazi stormtrooper holocaust thing, so what's wrong with adding a little reminder of the stuff Bush is doing? He's illustrating the rise of evil despots and bad rulers in general, and there happens to be a convenient and easily-relatable example sitting in the Oval Office - so why not?

EDIT:

And even if REVENGE OF THE SITH was filled with anti-Bush propaganda? A director has the right to plop his viewpoints into his works.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe in illustrating old archetypes (or whatever), Georgy decided to drop a little weeny example that's relevant to modern events. He's got the Ceasar Senate/Empire thing and the Nazi stormtrooper holocaust thing, so what's wrong with adding a little reminder of the stuff Bush is doing? He's illustrating the rise of evil despots and bad rulers in general, and there happens to be a convenient and easily-relatable example sitting in the Oval Office - so why not?

EDIT:

And even if REVENGE OF THE SITH was filled with anti-Bush propaganda? A director has the right to plop his viewpoints into his works.

Yes, both very good points.

I'm inclined to agree with you here, most likely just a few lines were added durring the writing from contemporary stuff. But the character Palpatine was created long before Bush, has many more qualities like Hitler, Stalin and Roman emperors among other dictators, and is certainly not a parody or jab at Bush.

And even IF he was, George Lucas has a right to have a character based on Bushy boy if he feels like it. After all, he's kind of paying for the whole thing.

Seems more like the Seattle radio-jock is a mindless Bush cheerleader who's looking for any hint of disrespect toward his little tin-god.

That much of the Bush White House's actions and rhetoric seem so easily parodied in Revenge Of The Sith is more a sign of how cartoonish they really are.

Yeah. An interesting thing I've just noticed now is that when you try and create a character that fits the archetype of EVIL SPACE TYRANT!!11, you end up with a person/monster that shares many qualities with Bush. Who, in turn, shares lots of attributes with other real life dictators. I mean, who goes on and on talking about 'Patriotism (tm)' and 'Freedom (tm)' and 'The Will of the People' and 'Democracy' and whatnot? Oh sure, every politician goes about like that, but the ones who spout the most diatribe (or whatever you call it) are the self-absorbed narcissistic/despotic/dictatorial psychopaths who command UNLIMITED POWER.

Meh, I'm just saying what everyone before me has said.

Darth Raptor wrote:Sidious: Brilliant, cunning, political/military strategist.
Bush: Erm... Not so much.

Actually, you're wrong. Bush is far smarter than Palpatine. George W Bush would never use himself as bait in a trap against Al-Quaeda. Palpatine seems smart because he has awesome magical powers to confuse and befuddle his enemies.

Christ. Imagine George Bush with the capacity to shoot out Sith lightning

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Christ. Imagine George Bush with the capacity to shoot out Sith lightning

Actually imagine Bin laden like that.
After all dont forget the kibosh that palpatine put on the senate, who says he couldnt do it to a weak minded fool like Bush
Darth Laden

Actually, bin Laden shouldn't be Palpatine, but Dooku. And then Bush'll tell Tony Blair to decapitate him