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In most of the review threads, I've seen complaints that Anakin's fall was done too quickly or was unbelievable in some way. "It only happened because it was supposed to happen" to paraphrase a few people. I think it was fine, but a lot of people think otherwise.

In all the reviews I've seen scant recommendation on how they could have fixed Anakin's fall to be more "believable"...so if you thought Anakin's fall was done badly, how would you changed things to have it done right?

Well, I guess I'll give a stab at it.

My primarily problem with Anakin's fall was that it did seem sudden. Just a few scenes ago, he reacts to Palpatine's admission of being a Sith Lord and wanting to teach him in the resounding negative, and immediately goes and informs the council. He even wanted to go with Windu to arrest Palpatine. Joining Palpatine doesn't seem to be all that high on his list, yet literally five minutes later he hasn't just joined him, but is heading off to slaughter children without question.

I guess we're mainly supposed to attribute it to his fears that Padme might die in childbirth. It is unfortunate that that plot point is so important, because I find it to be the weakest and stupidest point in the whole movie. Anakin is supposed to find the prospect that Padme, a healthy young woman with no major health problems, who as a senator presumably has access to the best and most expensive medical care in a galaxy where science has advanced so far beyond ours the mind boggles, could just die while giving birth. It's ludicrous. Not to mention the fact that prophecies can be wrong, prophecies can cause themselves, and "always in motion is the future." Did Anakin play hookey on the day they were teaching Visions 101?

So, how would I change things? In order for me to like Anakin beforehand (so, can't show him as a total git craving power who basically just follows his nature and sides with Palpatine) and empathize with him after his fall, a great tragedy has to befall Anakin that destroys his worldview and his hope for the future, and turns him utterly against the Jedi council. The answer to this is obvious: Padme has to die, and he must have a plausible reason to blame the Jedi for her death, thus causing him to seek revenge and driving him towards Palpatine. While Padme dieing earlier does add some complications of its own that need to be worked out, it's not impossible, and I feel that it would vastly increase my understanding and empathy towards Anakin. In fact, I started to type up a scenario, but it's late and I have to get up early for a trip tomorrow. Maybe in a couple days I'll come back to it.

OK I will try to keep this as close to the main movie as possible. After he has chopped Windos hands off and starts with the "what have I done bit" have him attack Palpanteen. During the fight the too can talk and we can get in to the reason for Anakin’s betrayal.

I don’t know exactly what they would say but I think that if they would put forward some more reasons it would improve it.

What drives me up the wall is that they had a perfectly sensible hook on which to hang Anakin's turning on, his mother, and they pissed it away. After I saw The Phantom Menace, I figured that Palpatine would use the fact that Qui-Gon left Anakin's mother in slavery on Tatooine, and that the Jedi never went there and freed the slaves, as a way to sow doubt in him. Also, Palpatine's suggestions that the Jedi do not have all the answers could have been spread out more, with him driving the wedge in deeper between him and the order. He could also suggest to Anakin that when the Separatists are defeated, they will expand the Republic/Empire once more, and end slavery on planets like Tatooine. Anakin would probably jump at the chance to return there as a savior.

I thought it was done Ok, and there is not much room for improvement. Anakin wanted to accompany the arrest team to ensure Sidious was not harmed so Sidious could teach him how to save Padme. Anakin had to betray the Order of his own volition, for his own gratification. Protecting Sideous to gain the knowledge to save Padme was always his motivation, not any dissatisfaction with the Jedi. The doubts of Jedi righteousness only made him realize Mace Windu would and could kill Sarth Sidious, and had to be stopped.

Maybe another scene where Padme says she does not fear her death, and Anakin self-indugently casts aside her input with something like, "Well, I do, and I will save you."

Then, as Anakin takes his Sith vows, Sidious says something like, "You have taken your first step into a greater universe; there is no turning back ..."

[cut to Darth Vader looking at something on the floor, cut to scene of Mace Windu's lightsaber lying battered on the floor] (which actually seemed to fall out the window, I think, but a little CGI tweaking fixes that) ...

"... forever will the Dark Side guide your destiny". Or some such, to emphasize Darth Vader was not a fully turned Sith, but well on the path.

I suppose if I have any problem with this whole thing, it is the Eve element that seems place a woman at or near the root of a man's fall.

The mechanical way Anakin responded to each of Palpatine's suggestions after Windu bought it made me think Anakin was going on autopilot. Not as a criticism of Hayden's acting: I think Palpatine was just controlling his automatic responses as Anakin's own mind was reeling in shock. ("What have I done!?") By the time he regained lucidity he must have realized he was already committed, and rationalized from there, with the help of the dark side's influence corrupting his mind. So I don't really have a problem with Anakin's fall. Any "improvement" I could think of would change the character. The central element is that Anakin didn't decide as such to go to the dark side; he made a mistake and was too morally weak to turn around and seek forgiveness, as it were. But it might have ended differently: it was the Padme lure that sealed the deal. The last conscious decision he made must have been to say "I will do whatever you ask... just help me save Padme's life." From there, Palps and the dark side are running the show.

Basically... I liked it.

He wasn't fully turned, but just kept digging himself in deeper. After one of his slaughters, I think it was on Mustafar, he was crying.

Mad wrote:He wasn't fully turned, but just kept digging himself in deeper. After one of his slaughters, I think it was on Mustafar, he was crying.

No he wasnt,
also he was exposed to lavafumes, if i missed it and he s crying then the fumes could have caused it.
At mustafar after the slaughter he was 100% Vader with no extra Anakin

Frankly, attributing Anakin's tears to lava fumes is the worst thing I ever heard.

Cykeisme wrote:Frankly, attributing Anakin's tears to lava fumes is the worst thing I ever heard.

Does anyone have a screenshot of him crying?

Why the hell would they focus on Anakin's face to show tears from lava fumes?

the .303 bookworm wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:Frankly, attributing Anakin's tears to lava fumes is the worst thing I ever heard.

Does anyone have a screenshot of him crying?

Admit it, you just like to see a grown man cry!

Morilore wrote:Why the hell would they focus on Anakin's face to show tears from lava fumes?

I cant remmember seeing him crying, also i remmember him looking very "dark" in the hood.
Also Lucas likes close up's especially of main character's at the start of each scene.

So either bring a pic and make me shut up or do not and face spamblivion!

He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

Tears of joy?

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

Wait, wasnt he crying when he killed the younglings?

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

Wait, wasnt he crying when he killed the younglings?

He just closes the door's ignites his Saber and the screen fades to black.

the .303 bookworm wrote:

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

Wait, wasnt he crying when he killed the younglings?

He just closes the door's ignites his Saber and the screen fades to black.

No, he has tears running down his face just as he igniteds his saber. I'm sure of it.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

I saw it as the moment when the reality of the situation really dawned on him. So it wasn't just tears for the Seperatists, but for pretty much everyone he'd screwed over.

Gandalf wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

I saw it as the moment when the reality of the situation really dawned on him. So it wasn't just tears for the Seperatists, but for pretty much everyone he'd screwed over.

No, it was for what he had become. He knew that he would never become the shining hero of nobility that he dreamed of becoming as a child. Anakin is all about being self-centred.

As for the fall, I would have only tweaked it slightly myself, and not in that scene but in other parts of the movie. You don't want the film to become too long or talky. I would have included the scene where the Jedi librarian brusquely blocks Anakin from looking at the restricted areas of the library (for information which might help Padmae) because he's not a Master. Then, after his fall, I would have shown him butchering his way through the Temple until he finds that librarian again, and I would have shown him taking particular pleasure in killing her.

Then, when he confronts Obi-Wan, instead of retorting to Obi-Wan's accusation of Palpatine's evil with "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", I would have made it a slightly more detailed rant, like "How dare you speak of loyalty and democracy? You and the other Jedi were planning to murder the Chancellor and take control of the Senate! I did not betray you; YOU betrayed ME!"

The problem with these changes, however, may be that George Lucas may not have wanted to make the audience too sympathetic to Vader. It's a delicate balancing act.

Darth Wong wrote:As for the fall, I would have only tweaked it slightly myself, and not in that scene but in other parts of the movie. You don't want the film to become too long or talky. I would have included the scene where the Jedi librarian brusquely blocks Anakin from looking at the restricted areas of the library (for information which might help Padmae) because he's not a Master. Then, after his fall, I would have shown him butchering his way through the Temple until he finds that librarian again, and I would have shown him taking particular pleasure in killing her.

Then, when he confronts Obi-Wan, instead of retorting to Obi-Wan's accusation of Palpatine's evil with "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", I would have made it a slightly more detailed rant, like "How dare you speak of loyalty and democracy? You and the other Jedi were planning to murder the Chancellor and take control of the Senate! I did not betray you; YOU betrayed ME!"

The problem with these changes, however, may be that George Lucas may not have wanted to make the audience too sympathetic to Vader. It's a delicate balancing act.

The Librarian one is great - too bad it wasn't in the film - but the change in dialogue, I don't know. The obivious retort would be; 'the Chancellor is the Sith Lord you idiot. The same Sith Lord, who's first apprentice mudered Qui-Gon, and tried to murder Padme and who's second apprentice cut of your dipshit arm, and oh look, yet again tried to murder Padme!'

Lets not even get into the whole 'playing both sides against the middle', and being the leader of both the Sepratists and the Republic thus being guilty of high treason.*




*And just to make it clear, these are the things they knew about Darth Sidious part in the whole role (just in case you weren't aware of the PT EU) leading up to the movie - they just didn't know who he was.

Crown wrote:The Librarian one is great - too bad it wasn't in the film - but the change in dialogue, I don't know. The obivious retort would be; 'the Chancellor is the Sith Lord you idiot. The same Sith Lord, who's first apprentice mudered Qui-Gon, and tried to murder Padme and who's second apprentice cut of your dipshit arm, and oh look, yet again tried to murder Padme!'

Lets not even get into the whole 'playing both sides against the middle', and being the leader of both the Sepratists and the Republic thus being guilty of high treason.*

Well of course it's not a bulletproof argument; Anakin is clearly wrong. There is no way to construct a bulletproof argument for Anakin to support what he's doing because he's being a stupid asshole, but at least the dialogue is less perfunctory than "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", which seems like he's not even trying to justify himself.

*And just to make it clear, these are the things they knew about Darth Sidious part in the whole role (just in case you weren't aware of the PT EU) leading up to the movie - they just didn't know who he was.

Did they actually know these things or did they just suspect them?

Darth Wong wrote:

Crown wrote:The Librarian one is great - too bad it wasn't in the film - but the change in dialogue, I don't know. The obivious retort would be; 'the Chancellor is the Sith Lord you idiot. The same Sith Lord, who's first apprentice mudered Qui-Gon, and tried to murder Padme and who's second apprentice cut of your dipshit arm, and oh look, yet again tried to murder Padme!'

Lets not even get into the whole 'playing both sides against the middle', and being the leader of both the Sepratists and the Republic thus being guilty of high treason.*

Well of course it's not a bulletproof argument; Anakin is clearly wrong. There is no way to construct a bulletproof argument for Anakin to support what he's doing because he's being a stupid asshole, but at least the dialogue is less perfunctory than "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", which seems like he's not even trying to justify himself.

Didn't the novelisation basically state it was Vader talking in that scene, not Anakin? Vader is a Sith, he may not feel a need to justify himself.

Gandalf wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:He butchered younglings by the dozen without a blink of an eye and then he cries over some Seperatist leaders? I don't get it.

I saw it as the moment when the reality of the situation really dawned on him. So it wasn't just tears for the Seperatists, but for pretty much everyone he'd screwed over.

I agree with Gandalf. Mustafar was the first place that he could stop and think about what he's done. And it all came down on him and he realized all that he had done in such a short amount of time. I loved that scene. It crystallized that he was nto just a robot, not a mindless killer. A part of him was horrified by what he had done.

Darth Wong wrote:Well of course it's not a bulletproof argument; Anakin is clearly wrong. There is no way to construct a bulletproof argument for Anakin to support what he's doing because he's being a stupid asshole, but at least the dialogue is less perfunctory than "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", which seems like he's not even trying to justify himself.

Actually that's kinda funny, because I sort of read into the unspoken there; 'From my point of view, the Jedi are evil [for witholding the knowledge of how to save someone from dieing, and giving hippy-ass sage advice about not letting attachements form - yeah like that isn't some piece of crap that just made totally no sense you self righteous motherfuckers].'

I guess its the ambiguity of the language, that either fails or doesn't, depending into what you want/can read into it.

Darth Wong wrote:Did they actually know these things or did they just suspect them?

I'll just list as much of the evidence I can remember, with where I got it from, I hope I don't forget anything;

1. AotC - Dooku tells Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord has gained control of the senate.
2. LoE - Anaking and Obi-Wan capture Nute Ganray's holo-chair, that contained a memory of Darth Sidious issuing directives to the Viceroy.
3. LoE - Mace Windu and others, based of this recording and the evidence told them by the Jedi that infaltred Dooku's organisation, begin an investigation on Coruscant.
4. LoE - Anakin and Obi-Wan lead their own investigation, which leads them to the people that designed and built Darth Maul's ship (as well as the aforementioned holo-chair), they get the address of where the ship was delivered to on Coruscant.
5. LoE - Mace and co go to the address provided by Anakin and Obi-Wan, it matches the description of where the undercover Jedi met with Dooku. They find evidence of Dooku having met another person there, using foriensic evidence they discover that this person fits the holo-recording in the Viceroy's chair. They back-track this individual to Republica 500 - the home of the very wealthy, senators and the Chancellor.
6. LoE - the attack begins, and Mace and Yoda realise that given how Grevious managed to get the Chancellor only someone very high up in the Republic military - or close to the Chancellor - could have provided the intel and information to Grevious to make the abduction work, someone other than Dooku.
7. RotS (novelisation) - the Jedi are convinced that the Sith Lord is in the Chancellor's inner circle.
8. RotS (novelisation and movie) - Palpatine reveals himself, Yoda refers to him as Darth Sidious - see point 2 as to when Yoda learned the name of Palpatine's true persona, since from the movie evidence he shouldn't know it.*

LoE = Labrynth of Evil by James Luceno.



*I might actually be very wrong with this point, I can't recall it in AotC, but did the novelisation have Dooku tell Obi-Wan the name of the supposed Sith Lord who was controlling the senate? Anyway, the rest of the evidence is enough, they have proof that Darth Sidious was instructing the Viceroy what to do, and with the security recordings of Anakin becoming Vader, they know that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same.


EDIT :: P.S. Someone correct me if I'm not remembering everything right, or forgetting stuff.