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In the simplist form how bad are things for Obi-Wan and Yoda presuming they are both victorious in their fights against Vader and Sidious?

It seems pretty simple that if Yoda manages to defeat Sidious that Vader will end up dying because no one will come to rescue and rebuild him.

The Clone Troopers will still be looking for Jedi. There's probably tons of evidence against the Jedi that has been compiled by Sidious and his flunkies. Plus, most of the Jedi are already dead. The Jedi organization is effectively dead. It seems unlikely that just Obi-Wan and Yoda could rebuild it very quickly even if they had the support of the government.

The remaining Jedi are exterminated by a vengeful populace (they did kill Anakin Skywalker and Chancellor Palpatine and the Clone War doesn't end so soon. It just gradually winds down. The Republic collapse and dissolves as does the Seperatist union and the galaxy breaks up into a hundred little collectives. The few Senators that didn't support Palpatine try to keep the Republic togethter but are unsuccesful.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:The remaining Jedi are exterminated by a vengeful populace (they did kill Anakin Skywalker and Chancellor Palpatine and the Clone War doesn't end so soon. It just gradually winds down. The Republic collapse and dissolves as does the Seperatist union and the galaxy breaks up into a hundred little collectives. The few Senators that didn't support Palpatine try to keep the Republic togethter but are unsuccesful.

Hadn't Sidious already given the order to the droids to deactivate?
And the leaders of the Separatist movement would all be dead, anyhow...I doubt it would be THAT bleak.

Not to mention, the Jedi Temple was still (mostly) intact; the historical archives could be retrieved and repaired at that point.

Also we do know that Vader hunted down many Jedi, especially any masters that escaped the purge.
With their help it shouldnt be too hard to get the Order running again if not in the same format it had before.

the .303 bookworm wrote:Also we do know that Vader hunted down many Jedi, especially any masters that escaped the purge.
With their help it shouldnt be too hard to get the Order running again if not in the same format it had before.

THe clone armies might pose a problem still, but with Palpatine dead, its impossible to tell if order 66 would still be in effect or not.

It depends on whether or not all clones recieved Order 66 or if it was just the command clones like the ARC troopers. The clones are raised to revere the Jedi as the ulimate warriors and commanders. I assume that Yoda and Obi-Wan would take control of the clone army, destroy what is left of the now shut down separatist forces, and restore the Jedi Order, with a few modifications perhaps.

Well, Obi-Wan was successful in his fight against Vader, so Vader dies alone and in much pain. Yoda kills Sidious and escapes Sidious' goons, long enough to exercise connections to senators such as Bail Organa to get order 66 lifted. This is easily done since the clones are loyal to the Republic command structure, not Palpatine and his secret New Order shadow government (which is now not only illicit, but leaderless with no apparent heir). With all the Separatist leaders dead, they quickly restore order to the galaxy with the help of a cowed and compliant dark-force addled senate and the surviving Jedi knights.

This is bad, far worse than Star Wars reality. Remember what happened when the Emperor died in RotJ? The Empire fractured into small space kingdoms, ruled by Warlords -- former higher-ups in the Imperial chain of command. Those who remained loyal to the Empire found themselves attempting in vain to hold up an organization that couldn't work without the central focus of power, Palpatine. While they did eventually reorganize themselves into the Remnant, this was only after decades of constant struggle.

Now, take that picture, and remove the Alliance (the seeds of it exist in RotS, but nothing else). You'll get an entire galaxy at war with each other, without the one faction which promises liberty, and at least an iota of stability. The GFFA is fucked.

EDIT: Typo.

Badme wrote:This is bad, far worse than Star Wars reality. Remember what happened when the Emperor died in RotJ? The Empire fractured into small space kingdoms, ruled by Warlords -- former higher-ups in the Imperial chain of command. Those who remained loyal to the Empire found themselves attempting in vain to hold up an organization that couldn't work without the central focus of power, Palpatine. While they did eventually reorganize themselves into the Remnant, this was only after decades of constant struggle.

Now, take that picture, and remove the Alliance (the seeds of it exist in RotS, but nothing else). You'll get an entire galaxy at war with each other, without the one faction which promises liberty, and at least an iota of stability. The GFFA is fucked.

EDIT: Typo.

Except now there's still the Senate to step in and take control again.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:

Badme wrote:This is bad, far worse than Star Wars reality. Remember what happened when the Emperor died in RotJ? The Empire fractured into small space kingdoms, ruled by Warlords -- former higher-ups in the Imperial chain of command. Those who remained loyal to the Empire found themselves attempting in vain to hold up an organization that couldn't work without the central focus of power, Palpatine. While they did eventually reorganize themselves into the Remnant, this was only after decades of constant struggle.

Now, take that picture, and remove the Alliance (the seeds of it exist in RotS, but nothing else). You'll get an entire galaxy at war with each other, without the one faction which promises liberty, and at least an iota of stability. The GFFA is fucked.

EDIT: Typo.

Except now there's still the Senate to step in and take control again.

Yeah, but the vast majority were in Palpatine's pocket anyway, judging from their voting his emergency powers, and their cheering at his declaration of Empire. Why would they share any loyalty to the Old Republic anymore?

Of course, it is possible that they'll unite in order to seize whatever power they can, but with the government in such a shakey state as it is...

I doubt the Republic would fragment like the Empire did; After all, in this scenario the GE has been officially formed for what, a few hours? It took the Emperor 20 years to completely remake the Republic to his wishes, and, from all the evidence, had to eventually disband the Senate on a pretext; Obviously they still rather liked the way things were. The Empire fragmented because it was specifically designed to do so; the Republic has umpteen millenia of Bureaucratic inertia behind it.

As for General Order 66, I'd personally assume that it was keyed to the commander of the Republic forces, I.E. the Office of the Supreme Chancellor (Which it still was at the time the Order was given), and not the Chancellor himself. Thus the Vice-Chancellor, whomever that may be, would have exclusive access to the biggest -and indeed, since Lord Vader sent the Droid Shutdown Signal the only- galaxy-wide military. I imagine dissent would be quashed rather easily.

The Republic was ready to collapse because of Palpatine's manipulations. And the Senate would make sure that the Jedi left would be hunted down. And the Jedi Temple has already been virtually destroyed, Order 66 has already happened, and most of the surviving Jedi have already scattered. More than likely, the galaxy would devolve into hundreds of small collectives fighting for control.

Wow, I'm convinced. Or perhaps you could try to refute my points or provide proof?

Trooper TK12746 wrote:The Republic was ready to collapse because of Palpatine's manipulations. And the Senate would make sure that the Jedi left would be hunted down. And the Jedi Temple has already been virtually destroyed, Order 66 has already happened, and most of the surviving Jedi have already scattered. More than likely, the galaxy would devolve into hundreds of small collectives fighting for control.

Why was it ready to collapse? The structure was still in place, the Senate had not been disbanded, and the "Empire" was still the Republic in everything but name.

The Jedi Temple had been attacked - it had NOT been "virtually destroyed", as you can see from the scenes inside the Temple. The inhabitants had been killed, but the structure itself was still mostly intact - the Archives were most likely still intact as well, for the most part.

The surviving Jedi have scattered, but at that point, they only have to survive until Order 66 is cancelled by the new leader of the Republic, whoever that may be.


There may be a few secessions, but they would be the exception rather than the norm; with a galactic economy, it would be virtual suicide for a planetary government to pull out of the Republic at that point.

At least part of the galaxy (the CIS) has already seceded from the Republic, many more would certainly join them once Palpatine is dead. Most of the Senators would want to kill the Jedi that assasinated their dear Emperor. And there are plenty of troops (clones) who would follow ORder 66 to the last. They were loyal to Palpatine, not the Jedi, and until Order 66 is complete, they will hunt down the Jedi. Perhaps the CIS might win, they could easily reactivate the droids and use their local militias to expand while the Republic is in chaos. Palpatine was right when he said that to change governments in the middle of a war would be disastrous.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:At least part of the galaxy (the CIS) has already seceded from the Republic, many more would certainly join them once Palpatine is dead.

Except all the Seperatist top brass were executed by Obi Wan and Lord Vader, who also sent an irreversable shutdown signal to the Seperatist troops.

Note also that Palpatine was personally responsible for the CIS. With him dead there's no point in fighting.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Most of the Senators would want to kill the Jedi that assasinated their dear Emperor. And there are plenty of troops (clones) who would follow Order 66 to the last. They were loyal to Palpatine, not the Jedi, and until Order 66 is complete, they will hunt down the Jedi.

Bzzzt. They're not loyal to the (dead) man, but the position, I.E. the Head of State, who could stop the order.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Perhaps the CIS might win, they could easily reactivate the droids and use their local militias to expand while the Republic is in chaos. Palpatine was right when he said that to change governments in the middle of a war would be disastrous.

Not to be picky, but proof would just make my day. Even if they could reactivate the droids, and since the facility which controls their status disintegrated during Lord Vader's Last Stand that's a debatable point, their political (Dooku) military (Grievous) and economic (The CIS council) leaders have all been killed. Who says they're in a state to do anything? Do you think the Clones were just farting around sipping beers after Lord Vader sent the shutdown signal? I'd bet good money that the CIS forces were wiped out and/or captured extremely quickly.

When did it say that the signal was irreversible?

And Sidious was partially responsible for preventing a Seperatist victory. They might not stay as the CIS, but it shows that many planets didn't want to be part of the Repbulic. And what happens with the Great Weapon?

I'd say the subsequent destruction of the facility kinda prevents anyone from flicking the 'Ooops, carry on as you were' button.

The Great Weapon is a 10% complete prototype; It obviously needed major redesigning since it took 19 more years to go into active service.

Anyway, that's nitpicking. The rest of my points?

THe Great Weapon is not the Death Star, the Great Weapon was never even finished. And the whole HQ on Mustafar isn't destroyed, just part of the Mining facility.

The droid army (if reactivated) could trounce the disorganized and leaderless clonetroopers whose only standing orders are to kill Jedi. Seeing this, many planets might join the CIS and the Republic would collapse. And hte Great Weapon blows up planets. IF the Seperatists can finish it, there goes the Republic.

1. Your idea of Order 66 seems to go like this: "Kill the Jedi and then stand around like munchkins." The majority of Jedi don't actually seem to do that much, merely tell their troopers 'right, we're heading thataway' and running forward like loons, leaving the important work to their ARC subordinates. I hardly think they're going to sit on their uniform asses when the entire enemy force simultaniously gives up.

2. The CIS has been rendered headless at this point; Sidious, Dooku, Grievous and the Council are dead. Who exactly are the disorganised and leaderless ones?

3. The Great Weapon is a 10-20% complete prototype. That means roughly another decade to get it 'fully armed and operational.'

1. The clonetroopers obey orders. Order 66 was their last order. Palpatine probably didn't think they needed to fight since the droid army would be deactivated and he could give them further orders. Now, there are no Jedi to lead the armies, and noone to plan the overall strategy of the war.

2. It would be disorganized, but all the CIS had to do to win is survive. THe Republic has to actually conquer the CIS worlds.

3. We don't even know when they started building it. How could you predict how long it would take to finish it?

Trooper TK12746 wrote:1. The clonetroopers obey orders. Order 66 was their last order. Palpatine probably didn't think they needed to fight since the droid army would be deactivated and he could give them further orders. Now, there are no Jedi to lead the armies, and noone to plan the overall strategy of the war.

So according to your logic, a Clonetrooper will not defend himself when fired upon unless expressly ordered to, and nobody apart from the Jedi are clever enough to win the war? The Jedi lead from the front

Trooper TK12746 wrote:2. It would be disorganized, but all the CIS had to do to win is survive. THe Republic has to actually conquer the CIS worlds.

Survive with all their top brass dead and the Clonetroopers sitting on top of their deactivated droids? Compared to that, the Republic has had an assassination of a political figure. Whoever Palpy's XO was would take nominal control until a candidate could be agreed upon. And the Jedi? Like I said, 90% of the important planning work is done by their XOs.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:3. We don't even know when they started building it. How could you predict how long it would take to finish it?

I'm giving you a high estimate by saying 3 years; The Great Weapon was just a blueprint in the Geonosian databanks before that. What's a nice low estimate for you? 6 months? that still means ~a year to finish construction.

The DS II would have been built in under six. I would say a max of teo years from beginning to end of the Great Weapon's construction. Palpatine has kept the CIS from winning this whole time by having every one of their new weapons found and destroyed by the Republic (biodroids, cortosis droids, dark jedi, etc). The clones would respond when fired upon, but not with the singleminddedness and unity as they had before. THe droid army could then defeat them. And each CIS world has a governent, each CIS army a general, they are still there. The CIS would only be lacking in overall strategy. And just by plowing over Republic planets they can pretty much end the war.

1. The DS2 was built by a completely unified galactic economy, during a time of (relative) peace. The DS2 figures are 6 months for 40%, so I think I'm being really quite nice by giving you 6 months for 20%.

2. I missed the bit about Palpy sabotaging the CIS efforts. Where's that from?

3. I still can't believe that you seriously believe the Clones would stick their thumbs up their asses instead of getting a surrender out of the remaining organic officers. IIRC Obi sneaks past a group of Clones escorting some prisoners, but don't hold me to that.

4. Each CIS world has a government, yes, and that's the CIS's weakness. The Republic has been a united body for 25,000 years; the CIS a loose coalition held together by Dooku's cult of personality for 3. IMHO it'd be the Seperatists who scattered, not the Republic.