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Since I equate the dog-fighting between X-wings and ties to WWII combat, I have come up with a question.

How would have Bong, Baden, and the boys have done if they had been rebel recruits at the time of the OT? Meaning, what if Leia would have landed on earth circa 1943 and recruited these men to join her. Would they have acheived great success ala a Wedge, or would their mindset and tactics make then worse off than a raw recruit?

Remember, every pilot was once a landshark, they all had to earn their wings, would these guys have had a leg up on the competition?

This is a shitty OP. Yeah, they'd be better than people who'd never flown anything before, but Newton still rules in space and these guys don't have a clue.

Courage, quick thinking, and an ability to strategize in three dimensions 'on the fly' (pardon the pun) would seem to translate regardless of the technology. They'd have to be at least as good as some kid who jumps from pod racing to interplanetary combat.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:This is a shitty OP. Yeah, they'd be better than people who'd never flown anything before, but Newton still rules in space and these guys don't have a clue.

Boy, I guess you forgot about the technology gap, that's shitty misthinking on your end.


Regards, the OP

Darth Mortis wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:This is a shitty OP. Yeah, they'd be better than people who'd never flown anything before, but Newton still rules in space and these guys don't have a clue.

Boy, I guess you forgot about the technology gap, that's shitty misthinking on your end.


Regards, the OP

No, its still stupid. Its stupid the way these "GADM Thrawn in place of historic naval commanders" is. Its not the same shit. And their relative ease cannot be quantified so only subjective conjectural guesses are possible resolutions to the OP. The OP does not specify a question which can be authoritatively or conclusively solved in an insightful or original manner, educating us.

In short, its shitty. Blow me, newb.

Darth Mortis wrote:Boy, I guess you forgot about the technology gap, that's shitty misthinking on your end.

I think he has the technology gap in mind with respect to his post. The problem is that you haven't taken into account the accelerated speed and reaction time required to survive in a SW starfighter. A TIE or X-wing isn't exactly a Spitfire.

So...you're asking how would Earth bound pilots(let's say they know how to fly these suckers) do when entered in arena a magnitude larger in every concievable way and taking out a few variables because it's space would do?

Why not give a bunch of samurai, a lightsaber?

They fail.

Firefox wrote:

Darth Mortis wrote:Boy, I guess you forgot about the technology gap, that's shitty misthinking on your end.

I think he has the technology gap in mind with respect to his post. The problem is that you haven't taken into account the accelerated speed and reaction time required to survive in a SW starfighter. A TIE or X-wing isn't exactly a Spitfire.

No, but my impression of the OP was whether great fighter aces would have 'a leg up on the competition' as trainees, not whether they could just hop into the cockpit and start blowing away the enemy. Regardless of what period of history you're talking about, the percentage of the general population that is physically, mentally and emotionally well-suited to life as a fighter pilot is pretty small. He's talking about people who excelled at that skill ... so would they be more likely to excel at it in a different technical environment than the average farmboy? Seems likely.

Take a few Top Gun graduates and they would do a whole lot better, their skills would equate better. This is because they are used to higher speeds, missiles, and have better training.

Samurai? Not sure about that, yes, the first time a Samurai holds a lightsaber he'll probably poke through his own fucking orbital socket. However, given time to adapt, I'm pretty sure they could end up handling them pretty well.

It is the same, I think with Pilots, once a pilot, always a pilot. Of course it's going to take a while to adjust to space flight, however the drive and determination would eventually breed success.

Again, only my opinion.

And it seems that you don't give humanity much credit, eh?

Chmee wrote:No, but my impression of the OP was whether great fighter aces would have 'a leg up on the competition' as trainees, not whether they could just hop into the cockpit and start blowing away the enemy.

Funny, I got the impression he meant the average trainee in the SW universe, who would be more knowledgeable and comfortable with the technology in use.

And it seems that you don't give humanity much credit, eh?

Apparently you've forgotten that Wedge and the like are humans as well.

yeah, its a major tech diference, you not only have the space flight, you also have the tech to learn and how to deal with the droid and other things.

Firefox wrote:

Chmee wrote:No, but my impression of the OP was whether great fighter aces would have 'a leg up on the competition' as trainees, not whether they could just hop into the cockpit and start blowing away the enemy.

Funny, I got the impression he meant the average trainee in the SW universe, who would be more knowledgeable and comfortable with the technology in use.

Fair enough, I'm not well enough versed in EU canon to know how Luke went from speeder-driving farmboy to X-Wing ace in five easy lessons, and of course the movies don't help dispel the notion that the P-38-to-X-wing transition will be easy when so many shots show the fighters executing combat maneuvers that are straight out of the Battle of Britain, without much concern for zero-gee/zero-atmosphere dynamics.

You shouldn't gloss over the ability of pilots of that era to learn technical data, though ... they were flying what amounted to cutting-edge technology of their era, and there was a lot more to their job than just seat-of-the-pants flying skill. Would their lack of updated science education be just too high of a hurdle to clear? Maybe. But I still think the first time Dick Bong climbed into an X-Wing and applied full thrust you'd get a very Will Smith-like "I have GOT to get me one of these!"

Chmee wrote:Fair enough, I'm not well enough versed in EU canon to know how Luke went from speeder-driving farmboy to X-Wing ace in five easy lessons,

You don't remember his talk of Beggars' Canyon and bulls-eyeing womprats in a T-16 airspeeder, not to mention his inherent force sensitivity?

and of course the movies don't help dispel the notion that the P-38-to-X-wing transition will be easy when so many shots show the fighters executing combat maneuvers that are straight out of the Battle of Britain, without much concern for zero-gee/zero-atmosphere dynamics.

Except they're dealing with much higher speeds, faster turns, accelerations, not to mention reliance on acceleration compensators which will not give the same experience a WWII pilot would feel. And again, there's the technology gap.

You shouldn't gloss over the ability of pilots of that era to learn technical data, though ... they were flying what amounted to cutting-edge technology of their era, and there was a lot more to their job than just seat-of-the-pants flying skill.

Irrelevant. Their "cutting edge" technology is still far behind SW tech.

Would their lack of updated science education be just too high of a hurdle to clear?

Certainly enough to the point that they wouldn't have an advantage over your average SW trainee.

I would guess a WW II pilot would do quite well. I remember reading the memoirs of a former WW II pilot, who later became a civillian airline pilot, and one of the big changes many appreciated in the 1960s was the shift in pilot training to focus more on flying. Apparently pilots had to have a firm grasp of the engineering of their aircraft, to the point where some were apt to complain "I just want to know how to fly it, not build it," as they had to retrain and recertify on each new model of aircraft that came out in their fleet.

WW II pilots also had to navigate their own planes, without a network of beacons, and deal with a tech not as reliable and forgiving as a SW starfighter. Overall, the brainwork involved would be the same, even if the information was different. A pilot is a technician, not a scientific theorist. In fact, given all the computerized augmentation, they might find it easier to operate a SW fighter.

The education of normal human Star Wars pilots isn't touched on, but since they aren't superhuman in their intelligence and capabilities, I would think a person from the 1940s would have enough brains to learn which buttons to press, the what and why of any new procedures, commands to give his astromech, and adapt his mind to operating in a weightless 3D environment.

General Brock wrote:I would guess a WW II pilot would do quite well. I remember reading the memoirs of a former WW II pilot, who later became a civillian airline pilot, and one of the big changes many appreciated in the 1960s was the shift in pilot training to focus more on flying. Apparently pilots had to have a firm grasp of the engineering of their aircraft, to the point where some were apt to complain "I just want to know how to fly it, not build it," as they had to retrain and recertify on each new model of aircraft that came out in their fleet.

WW II pilots also had to navigate their own planes, without a network of beacons, and deal with a tech not as reliable and forgiving as a SW starfighter. Overall, the brainwork involved would be the same, even if the information was different. A pilot is a technician, not a scientific theorist. In fact, given all the computerized augmentation, they might find it easier to operate a SW fighter.

The education of normal human Star Wars pilots isn't touched on, but since they aren't superhuman in their intelligence and capabilities, I would think a person from the 1940s would have enough brains to learn which buttons to press, the what and why of any new procedures, commands to give his astromech, and adapt his mind to operating in a weightless 3D environment.

So going from an enviroment that relies on gravity and air as enviroment and has the ground as a defining barrier to No air, no ground and orders of magnitude order of speed difference is just a simple thing to overcome?

Wow, guess we should strap in WW2 pilots in F-15s and they would just adapt.

As opposed to going from a tractor to a Me109? I assume that was a pretty big leap.

Ghost Rider wrote: Wow, guess we should strap in WW2 pilots in F-15s and they would just adapt.

Better than you I assume.

Darth Mortis wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: Wow, guess we should strap in WW2 pilots in F-15s and they would just adapt.

Better than you I assume.

How about you quit sniping at peolpe like a little bitch and actually take a position and defend it?

Ender wrote:How about you quit sniping at peolpe like a little bitch and actually take a position and defend it?

Um, did you read this thread?

I have stated my position, and defended it.

thanks for the info though.

Darth Mortis wrote:Um, did you read this thread?

I have stated my position, and defended it.

thanks for the info though.

I don't see how

Darth Mortis wrote:Better than you I assume.

qualifies as defending your position.

let's take a synopsis.

I asked a question.

Ghostrider gave his opinion

I gave mine

he took a shot at me

I took a shot at him

seems pretty fun and fair if you ask me.


My opinion is that a WW2 pilot would adapt better to flying an X-wing than a standard (read non:Luke or Anakin) person from star wars who goes to flight school. The reason: Drive and determination, confidence and cunning, mind set and dog fighting past.

These man, such as Baden and Dick Bong, adapted from farm boy to ace pilot in a matter of months.

I feel that they would be succesful as X-Wing Pilots, as compared with a standard pilot of the time (with equal training) however, I admit I was playing devil's advocate a little bit as well.


Regards

DM

Darth Mortis wrote:

Ender wrote:How about you quit sniping at peolpe like a little bitch and actually take a position and defend it?

Um, did you read this thread?

I have stated my position, and defended it.

thanks for the info though.

bullshit.

snotty nonsensical reply to IP
glib comment about humanity made to make those against you appear overly negative insteaed of armed with the facts
false comparison between two machines built by the same tech base
snotty commetn to GR
snotty comment to me.

Not one single defensive point there. If you think being a brat consitutes debating, expect to see the door shortly.

Darth Mortis wrote: he took a shot at me

I took a shot at him

He criticized your reasoning behind the baseless assumption that WWII pilots could adapt to flying SW starfighters easier than average SW trainees. Hardly a "shot".

My opinion is that a WW2 pilot would adapt better to flying an X-wing than a standard (read non:Luke or Anakin) person from star wars who goes to flight school. The reason: Drive and determination, confidence and cunning, mind set and dog fighting past.

These man, such as Baden and Dick Bong, adapted from farm boy to ace pilot in a matter of months.

Without nearly the technology and environmental disparity they would face going from Spitfire cockpit to X-wing cockpit.

however, I admit I was playing devil's advocate a little bit as well.

Devil's advocates are not looked upon here with much kindness.

Darth Mortis wrote:let's take a synopsis.

I asked a question.

Ghostrider gave his opinion

I gave mine

he took a shot at me

I took a shot at him

seems pretty fun and fair if you ask me.

GR took a shot at you in the course of presenting a point. You didn't. The fact that you are trying to argue this just shows you are a moron.

My opinion is that a WW2 pilot would adapt better to flying an X-wing than a standard (read non:Luke or Anakin) person from star wars who goes to flight school. The reason: Drive and determination, confidence and cunning, mind set and dog fighting past.

So a whole mess of bullshit basically.

Qualify the standards here, and then prove they have more drive, determination, confidence, or cunning then people whose galaxy has basically been fighting a nonstop war for 40 years. And the mindset for an atmospheric fighter actually works agaisnt them as IP pointed out, and their experience is a handicaqp for the same reason.

These man, such as Baden and Dick Bong, adapted from farm boy to ace pilot in a matter of months.

That's nice, doesn't prove shit. This is a completley different tech base here. Your guys have on; the vaguest clue what radar is, much less lidar, infared scanners, subspace scanners, etc and how to read them. They don't speak the language so they can't read the displays. They aren't used to the factr that dropping dead on someones 6 will kill them from engine wash. They aren't used to the fact you can't bank. Do you have any concpet of how big a differense this is?

I feel that they would be succesful as X-Wing Pilots, as compared with a standard pilot of the time (with equal training) however, I admit I was playing devil's advocate a little bit as well.

If they get the same training as everyone else, you need to prove they woud be better.