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Posted: **2005-06-20 03:43am**

I was rereading Revenge of the Sith when I came upon two interesting concepts.

"The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for its revenge. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

--The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"

-- From Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover

This makes sense when you consider how set in their ways the Jedi had become and how sneaky the Sith had. Anyway, my thought was that after the fall of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire the Sith had their ascendency. They ruled for some 30 years compared to the Jedi's 1,000 but still.

In the end the Sith were overthrown by the Jedi.

Okay, so the Jedi become dominant again. After that point it is the Jedi (under Luke) who has modified its tactics and training regime to combat the Sith foe that exist at that time.

But the Sith did not change, they continued to use the tactics that they used successfully against the Old Jedi Order.

So it seems that the continual battle between the Sith and Jedi is that one gains domination the other goes into hiding. The one in hiding learns about the tactics of the other and eventually strikes back, causing the one that was winning to go into hiding. And on and on the vicious cycle goes.

Currently, it is the Jedi who has gained ascendency and a new Sith (under somebody -- maybe Lumiya) which is hiding. The fight continues unabated only the time in between the fights change.

The second concept didn't cause me to do much deep thinking because its profound enough as it is. I gather the italized texts at the begining of each chapter into a whole and read it all together. Its a very nice and interesting thing. Here it is:

The dark is generous.
It's first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from us the truths of others.
The dark protects us from what we dare not know.
Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in night's embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would rpeel in day's harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that the dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it is day that is temporary.
Day is the illusion.
Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self.
With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.

The dark is generous, and it is patient.
It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.
The dark can be patient, because the slightest drop of ran will cause those seeds to sprout.
The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind the star that gives them light.
The dark's patience is infinite.
Eventually, even stars burn out.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins.
It always wins because it is everywhere.
It is in the wood that burns in your hearth, and in the kettle on the fire; it is under your chair, and under your table and under the sheets on your bed. Walk in the midday sun and the dark is with you, attached to the soles of your feet.
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins--but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.
Love is more than a candle.
Love can ignite stars.

-- Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover.

Posted: **2005-06-20 03:46am**

The Sith have been exterminated. Anyone now calling themselves a sith is merely a dark jedi pretender.

Posted: **2005-06-20 03:51am**

The Sith have been exterminated.

Fine, thats what you get out of it. I don't. I figure that even if the Sith as we know it are gone then others will find some amount of Sith training and remake it. It might not be the same Sith as the one forged by Bane and containing Palpatine and Vader but it still would be Sith. As those Sith are nto the same as the origonal Dark Jedi who found the ancient barbaric Sith some 25,000 years ago and decided to take up posistions as living gods. The term Sith is both a singular organization and a Force tradition with a great past and history.*

Besides that, I found that the two passenges were both interesting in the set-up of the Star Wars universe.

*This is not a fight or the begining of a flame even though it might seem like it.

Posted: **2005-06-20 03:55am**

NecronLord wrote:The Sith have been exterminated. Anyone now calling themselves a sith is merely a dark jedi pretender.

Couldn’t someone find an ancient sith hologram thing and learn Sithnes from it.

Posted: **2005-06-20 04:01am**

Both are profound, in their own way.

With the Jedi-Sith cycle, I had already noticed the pattern and am trying to incorporate it into one of my many, many (too many) stories.

The second excerpt is almost like a riddle, the way it's written. It inspires deep thought on the concepts of light and darkness as both bring the other into focus and strengthen themselves.

New Sith have to start somewhere. Find a Sith holocron, an old Darth's journal, something along those lines. Not everyone needs a teacher. The original Sith had to teach themselves.

Posted: **2005-06-20 04:04am**

It is quite obvious from the prophecy that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader are the last of the unbalancingly powerful Sith that the force will permit. The balance comes in the equality of power offered by the dark and light side traditions, something that had been upset by the stagnant jedi and progressive jedi. Future Dark Siders will be nothing like as powerful as the Sith of old. This is either a matter of destiny or worse, the will of the 'Living Force.' Future Sith will just be dark jedi who call themselves Sith - as Dooku said, it takes more than a red lightsaber to call one's self a Sith Lord.

Posted: **2005-06-20 04:07am**

It is quite obvious from the prophecy that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader are the last of the unbalancingly powerful Sith that the force will permit. The balance comes in the equality of power offered by the dark and light side traditions, something that had been upset by the stagnant jedi and progressive jedi. Future Dark Siders will be nothing like as powerful as the Sith of old. This is either a matter of destiny or worse, the will of the 'Living Force.'

You don't know that, its just an opinion. Time can change any situation into a different one. Plus, we still don't exactly know what Will Bring Balance to the Force is. We think we know, but it hasn't exactly been directly spelled out. And as long as their is ambiguity then their is doubt.

Posted: **2005-06-20 04:19am**

The prophecy of the destruction of the Sith by Darth Vader is canon. The destruction of the last true Sith Lords by Vader is also canon. It has indeed been spelled out, by Lucas, whose out-of-universe comments are rarely sensible, but still. That's what it is. Other pretenders like Ventress of Lumirya (however it's spelt) are just that, pretenders who were never taught the true Sith Arts.

Posted: **2005-06-20 05:28am**

NecronLord wrote:The prophecy of the destruction of the Sith by Darth Vader is canon. The destruction of the last true Sith Lords by Vader is also canon. It has indeed been spelled out, by Lucas, whose out-of-universe comments are rarely sensible, but still. That's what it is. Other pretenders like Ventress of Lumirya (however it's spelt) are just that, pretenders who were never taught the true Sith Arts.

Begs the question of where did the true sith arts come from?. Why can they not be rediscovered?
Is the word 'Sith' mearly a name of an organisation? or does it define specific abilities?

Posted: **2005-06-20 05:39am**

Sith teachings are evidently a mostly oral tradtion. And yes, it's different from simply being a dark jedi with a red lightsaber. There are specific teachings and powers that are unique to the Sith.

Posted: **2005-06-20 05:50am**

NecronLord wrote:Sith teachings are evidently a mostly oral tradtion. And yes, it's different from simply being a dark jedi with a red lightsaber. There are specific teachings and powers that are unique to the Sith.

Is it possible to learn these powers?

Posted: **2005-06-20 05:56am**

Stuart Mackey wrote:Is it possible to learn these powers?

Only from a Sith. And the only known source of recent (last 1000 odd years) Sith lore is essenially oral. Namely, learn from Vader or Sidious or Dooku etc.

Posted: **2005-06-20 05:56am**

Drunk Monkey wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The Sith have been exterminated. Anyone now calling themselves a sith is merely a dark jedi pretender.
Couldn’t someone find an ancient sith hologram thing and learn Sithnes from it.

Sure, but then they would be a couple of millenia behind the point of Darths Sidious and Vader - since the holocron is, well, anchient - no?

Stuart Mackey wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Sith teachings are evidently a mostly oral tradtion. And yes, it's different from simply being a dark jedi with a red lightsaber. There are specific teachings and powers that are unique to the Sith.
Is it possible to learn these powers?

Not from a Jedi.

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:06am**

Stuart Mackey wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Sith teachings are evidently a mostly oral tradtion. And yes, it's different from simply being a dark jedi with a red lightsaber. There are specific teachings and powers that are unique to the Sith.
Is it possible to learn these powers?

Yes but only from a sith and they generally require the use of the dark side.
It's practically inconcievable that a sith would teach the secrets of the order to a lesser darksider.
Also there are degrees of "sithness" with force lightning being the very low end to the point that it's common DS knowledge but the life draining aspects that Palpatine uses are possibly Sith only variations, while Darth Bane's thought bomb (used by lord Kaan on rusann) is a closely guarded secret of the greatest sith lords.

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:09am**

NecronLord wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Is it possible to learn these powers?
Only from a Sith. And the only known source of recent (last 1000 odd years) Sith lore is essenially oral. Namely, learn from Vader or Sidious or Dooku etc.

Dude! your supposed to say "Not from a Jedi"

Spoil Sport.

Well the original Sith had to learn it somehow, It could be relearned, albeit over..say..25 000 years..??

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:10am**

Crown wrote:
Not from a Jedi.

Thats more like it

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:13am**

Stuart Mackey wrote:Well the original Sith had to learn it somehow, It could be relearned, albeit over..say..25 000 years..??

Yes. It could be rediscovered. Hopefully, however, the New Jedi order won't lag behind again.

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:14am**

the .303 bookworm wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Sith teachings are evidently a mostly oral tradtion. And yes, it's different from simply being a dark jedi with a red lightsaber. There are specific teachings and powers that are unique to the Sith.
Is it possible to learn these powers?
Yes but only from a sith and they generally require the use of the dark side.
It's practically inconcievable that a sith would teach the secrets of the order to a lesser darksider.
snip interesting stuff.

And where did the Sith learn it from?

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:16am**

NecronLord wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Well the original Sith had to learn it somehow, It could be relearned, albeit over..say..25 000 years..??
Yes. It could be rediscovered. Hopefully, however, the New Jedi order won't lag behind again.

Indeed.
Now, you owe me a 'Not from a Jedi'

Posted: **2005-06-20 06:23am**

Stuart Mackey wrote: Now, you owe me a 'Not from a Jedi'

Not from a Jedi...

Posted: **2005-06-20 08:10am**

I suppose NecronLord has a point when he says that the powers don't stem simply from the users themselves, nor merely from their knowledge of the Force, but flow from the Force. If the will of the Force no longer wills it, learning the old Sith arts won't bring them to the heights that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader once reached.
The events we see in the movies are the last great battle between Light and Dark, that eclipse every battle that has ever come and all the battles that have yet to come.

Their civilization is 25,000 years old, and it is likely to last tens of thousands more. In the ages to come, I'm sure there will be other Dark Side adepts who will attempt conquest, but none so dangerous as Sidious. They may name themselves Sith, but they will be Sith no more than Vetress was.

Putting our hats of disbelief (:)) down for a second, recall for a moment that this is a fairy tale of sorts. They don't exactly live happily ever after, but the events we see are the greatest and most exciting that ever hapened in the SW galaxy, which is why they were selected for our viewing pleasure.

Posted: **2005-06-20 08:30am**

NecronLord wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Well the original Sith had to learn it somehow, It could be relearned, albeit over..say..25 000 years..??
Yes. It could be rediscovered. Hopefully, however, the New Jedi order won't lag behind again.

They still would not be the sith. You can dress like a scout; act like a boy scout but that dose not make you a scout. Only by belonging to the organisation can you be one. The same is true of the sith. To be a sith you need to have been trained by a sith. Since there are no sith left there is no way to join the sith. It is conservable however that a sith sprit could restart things. There was one in Jedi academy that was contained not destroyed.

Posted: **2005-06-20 10:00am**

There were different incarnations of the Sith before Bane's order and there will be different incarnations of the Sith after Bane's order.

And as soon as the Jedi grow complacent again, the Sith will rise again. If there is one constant then that history repeats itself.

Posted: **2005-06-20 11:52am**

The Old Jedi Order thought the SIth were exterminated too, however, one escaped. We have no proof the Sith are exterminated. And, the prophecy says "bring balance to the Force", not "Keep the Force in balance". ANd with the NJO, the Force is unbalanced, hundreds of Jedi, few darksiders. Vader fulfilled the prophecy with the extermination of the old order, that balanced hte Force.

Posted: **2005-06-20 11:54am**

NecronLord wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Is it possible to learn these powers?
Only from a Sith. And the only known source of recent (last 1000 odd years) Sith lore is essenially oral. Namely, learn from Vader or Sidious or Dooku etc.

Except of course, for ancient Sith Holocrons detailing this power. (As seen in the RotS novelization and several EU sources).

Plus, as a total canon source, Yoda himself said that perhaps the Jedi got the prophecy wrong. Just because something is said and believed in the movie doesn't make it true. That whole 'point of view' thing.

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