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I'm wondering this, because I'd like to get a quantifiable number on the power of force push/TK.

We see during the fight in the hangar Obi Wan abso-fucking-lutely BLAST GG back up into the "air conditioning" unit in the rafters. So, given GG's weight, we could approximate distance and time of travel to come up with some firm numbers...

It's difficult to say without knowing the density of the armor. Based on a height of 2.16 meters and relatively light build, I think 100 kg would be a very conservative estimate. If the armor was significantly denser than iron or steel, and I have no doubt it could be seeing as Grevious moved with machine aid and one would think he would chose to use dense or conductive material to absorb heat from a lightsabre or blaster, perhaps 200 kg is realistic. Of course I’m just pulling numbers off the top of my head without a good picture of Grevious to scale and calculate the volume of each appendage.

Is the gravity of Utapau mentioned somewhere?

Looked close enough to earth grav when Obi-Wan took a header into the water...

His body is resistant to Lightsabers? Doesn't that kinda fly in the face of the instances of him losing two arms to saber cuts? (granted his wrists aren't super thick.. heck his whole body is pretty "skeletal" in nature). He was also killed by a blaster (though it hit his gooey innards, rather than blasting through his robotic parts).

Somebody said on here that IG-88 was supposed to weigh mutiple tons... and these Magnaguards (per the novel) are IG-100 series droids, so they're supposed to be similar right? And Grevious looks about the same size as them (maybe a little taller, but he always hunches over). So I guess that would make him multiple tons as well. On the other hand he might not. He was pretty agile it seemed and apparently without any built in repulsors or rocket boosters.

Kurgan wrote:He was pretty agile it seemed and apparently without any built in repulsors or rocket boosters.

Why would agility imply that he must be light? Rapid movements would require great force, but they would not be impossible, especially if he can magnetically anchor himself to the deck. Note that he dented his starfighter when he took a swing at Obi-Wan and missed, and that he dented a starship's hull plating with his feet when he flew out of the bridge and swung back on his grappling cable. That implies considerable mass.

Kurgan wrote:He was pretty agile it seemed and apparently without any built in repulsors or rocket boosters.

The Magnadroids seemed fairly agile to me. They weren't hopping around as much as Grievous, but this may be due to the fact that there was a compartitively low ceiling in the Invisble Hand versus the places where Grievous has fought (and perhaps the droids being concious about the sensitive piloting equipment around them, not too keen on wrecking the bridge).

The Clone Wars cartoons might be an indicator too, though I haven't seen any, so feel free to chime in.

OK - so lets assume 200kg, it is a pretty low end figure for a metal/ceramic monster 2+ metres tall. And bear in mind, I HAVEN'T DONE MATHS/PHYSICS OFFICALLY FOR NEARLY 6 YEARS... So, if there's a problem, please - don't berate. I'm trying.

OK, from my most recent watching of RotS (damn you George Lucas), it looks like 20m that Grievous is launched along a roughly 45 degree above the horizontal trajectory. This flight last one second (roughly). Thus, v = 20ms


K.E = unknown
m = 200kg
v = 20ms

KE = 1/2mv^2
KE = 1/2(200x20^2)
KE = 1/2(200x400)
KE = 1/2(80000)
KE = 40000j

Thus - if I am correct - Obi Wan imparted 40kj into Grievous to launch him like that. Any corrections/objections/clarifications/expansions on this?

Your KE equation is fine, but I would have gone with a force output rather than energy, as a joule is a 'harder' concept to grasp for the layman, than say a Newton, which is just moving one kg, one meter, in one second.

But your assumptions, are un-justified which kinda makes the whole thing ... academic.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Kurgan wrote:He was pretty agile it seemed and apparently without any built in repulsors or rocket boosters.

The Magnadroids seemed fairly agile to me. They weren't hopping around as much as Grievous, but this may be due to the fact that there was a compartitively low ceiling in the Invisble Hand versus the places where Grievous has fought (and perhaps the droids being concious about the sensitive piloting equipment around them, not too keen on wrecking the bridge).

The Clone Wars cartoons might be an indicator too, though I haven't seen any, so feel free to chime in.

Actually do we see any of them leaping? (down perhaps, but not up) The novel IIRC said something about the Magnaguards leaping upwards, but I don't recall, maybe I'm wrong.

Still though, I'm not wishing to get into a huge argument about it, but does his being able to dent metal with his fists really imply a huge mass? Martial artists can break bricks with their bare hands and that doesn't require that they weigh 400 lbs. to do so (I realize bricks and Starfighter's unshielded metal hulls are not the same thing) There's a certain limit to breaking bones and a person's hand or foot hurting (does Grevious even feel pain?). And Jedi can do similar feats, but nobody said Grevious had the Force so I won't bother with that one.

The one thing that said to me "Grevious must be a heavy guy" was when Kenobi kicked him and hurt his own shin. Then again if it's just a "magnetic boot trick" then maybe not. Still, when Grevious has trying to "smash" Kenobi with his feet, it made impressive rumbling sounds, but the platform didn't shake, and it didn't make craters. Hard floor?

Edit: And yes, the CW series does show Grevious doing Jedi like feats like leaping dozens of feet into the air and clutching from the raftors like a bat or spider or something. All of the abilities shown in the CW series seem greatly exaggerated, so I wouldn't trust them, personally. Not after what we've seen in ROTS (when I saw the climax to Season 2, I figured Grevious must be force sensitive, but of course I was wrong).

Crown wrote:Your KE equation is fine, but I would have gone with a force output rather than energy, as a joule is a 'harder' concept to grasp for the layman, than say a Newton, which is just moving one kg, one meter, in one second.

But your assumptions, are un-justified which kinda makes the whole thing ... academic.

Which assumptions?

From what I can tell, Utapau has earth like gravity (the fall of Obi Wan seems to demonstrate this). The distance can be more accurately measured when we get a DVD or (ahem) other version if someone is willing to do some pixel counting. The biggest dilemma is Grievous' weight.

*throwing technobabble monkey wrench in* Maybe he has a mass-lightening field generator on him?

Just kidding. Good luck though!

weemadando wrote:

Crown wrote:Your KE equation is fine, but I would have gone with a force output rather than energy, as a joule is a 'harder' concept to grasp for the layman, than say a Newton, which is just moving one kg, one meter, in one second.

But your assumptions, are un-justified which kinda makes the whole thing ... academic.

Which assumptions?

From what I can tell, Utapau has earth like gravity (the fall of Obi Wan seems to demonstrate this). The distance can be more accurately measured when we get a DVD or (ahem) other version if someone is willing to do some pixel counting. The biggest dilemma is Grievous' weight.

Well since the KE equations uses just two independant variables, then the assumptions would be obvious; mass and velocity.

Mass, you plucked out of thin air - which is of course understandable - and velocity you eyeballed. Hence why I said, 'assumptions are un-justified' and why we should wait for the DVD, so we can scale the fucker to at least get velocity down (pixel counting, joy!) to somewhat accurate level.

He's heavy enough to instantly kill that padawan he lands at the end of in Clone Wars Vol.1. Unfortuantly we done see anything to know how high he was falling from though...

we must also remember that Grievous has repulsor unit in his body.

Kurgan wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Kurgan wrote:He was pretty agile it seemed and apparently without any built in repulsors or rocket boosters.

The Magnadroids seemed fairly agile to me. They weren't hopping around as much as Grievous, but this may be due to the fact that there was a compartitively low ceiling in the Invisble Hand versus the places where Grievous has fought (and perhaps the droids being concious about the sensitive piloting equipment around them, not too keen on wrecking the bridge).

The Clone Wars cartoons might be an indicator too, though I haven't seen any, so feel free to chime in.

Actually do we see any of them leaping? (down perhaps, but not up) The novel IIRC said something about the Magnaguards leaping upwards, but I don't recall, maybe I'm wrong.

Still though, I'm not wishing to get into a huge argument about it, but does his being able to dent metal with his fists really imply a huge mass? Martial artists can break bricks with their bare hands and that doesn't require that they weigh 400 lbs. to do so (I realize bricks and Starfighter's unshielded metal hulls are not the same thing) There's a certain limit to breaking bones and a person's hand or foot hurting (does Grevious even feel pain?). And Jedi can do similar feats, but nobody said Grevious had the Force so I won't bother with that one.

The one thing that said to me "Grevious must be a heavy guy" was when Kenobi kicked him and hurt his own shin. Then again if it's just a "magnetic boot trick" then maybe not. Still, when Grevious has trying to "smash" Kenobi with his feet, it made impressive rumbling sounds, but the platform didn't shake, and it didn't make craters. Hard floor?

Edit: And yes, the CW series does show Grevious doing Jedi like feats like leaping dozens of feet into the air and clutching from the raftors like a bat or spider or something. All of the abilities shown in the CW series seem greatly exaggerated, so I wouldn't trust them, personally. Not after what we've seen in ROTS (when I saw the climax to Season 2, I figured Grevious must be force sensitive, but of course I was wrong).

Why, why, why no love for the CW series? Is there anything in it that's just plain impossible? Is there any scene in it which cannot fit into the larger continuity of the movies? Is there any reason at all to think that Mace Windu cannot kick precisely THAT much ass (seeing as how he's one of the three or four best fighters in the Jedi Order, and has access to Force Speed and Force Jump and all those nice abilities)?

What is with the seemingly knee-jerk reaction that the CW series can be discounted because, hey, it's got people doing cool shit, and it's a cartoon, so let's just ignore it?

What is with the seemingly knee-jerk reaction that the CW series can be discounted because, hey, it's got people doing cool shit, and it's a cartoon, so let's just ignore it?

I dont have too much of a problem with the CW continuity wise (other than the fact that it conflicts with LOE, but that can be explained away.)

However, there are two examples of what some would call "Uber Jedi wanking."
One, the whole Dantooine battle. Yes, Mace Windu is one BMF, but I cannot see him disassembling dozens of droids into thier component parts with the flick of a hand and without the slightest bit of exertion, and then later flying more than three miles in under four seconds. If he could really do all that, why didnt he just liquify Jango at a distance in AOTC?

Two, Yoda on Coruscant. Yes, he can lift an X-Wing, and he can leviate a senate pod under the direct control of Palpatine, but I just cannot picture him smashing half a dozen TF landers with only a bit of exertion, and wiping out a hundred Droidekas in a moment.

However, I do not think that GG exibited abilities are beyond reasonable. He simply did not have much opertunity to show them during ROTS (and he did to some extent in his fight with Obi.

You can get a lower limit estimate with fewer assumptions if you just calculate Grievous' GPE. Assuming that Grievous was thrown up ten metres under normal gravity, then the minimum energy would be 100 J/kg. If Grievous weights 200 kg, then the energy required would be about 20kj. Since Grievious smacked into something, before reaching the top of his trajectory, it's almost impossible to estimate the actual energy without pixel counting (you'd use the KE equation in this case).

Crown wrote: Your KE equation is fine, but I would have gone with a force output rather than energy, as a joule is a 'harder' concept to grasp for the layman, than say a Newton, which is just moving one kg, one meter, in one second.

Nitpick: That's momentum. A Newton is equal to the force of a kilogram being accelerated to one meter per second in one second.

But speaking of force, I think the Jedi could withstand quite a bit of it. Remember how in AOTC, Mace Windu fell about thirty metres and landed on his feet without even having to crouch. If his body hit the ground and didn't even have to budge more then 0.25 m, then he'd have survived a 120 g acceleration (upper limit since Geonosis has lower gravity). Just an example and a tangental rant.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

What is with the seemingly knee-jerk reaction that the CW series can be discounted because, hey, it's got people doing cool shit, and it's a cartoon, so let's just ignore it?

One, the whole Dantooine battle. Yes, Mace Windu is one BMF, but I cannot see him disassembling dozens of droids into thier component parts with the flick of a hand and without the slightest bit of exertion, and then later flying more than three miles in under four seconds. If he could really do all that, .

Canon has it that the Dantooine fight is a "legend" as told by the kid who watches mace fight.

Crown wrote: a Newton, which is just moving one kg, one meter, in one second.

Much love for the Crown-man, but I must point out.. that's incorrect. A Newton alters the velocity of a one kilogram thingy by one meter per second, over a period of a second. A distinct difference.

Lord Revan wrote:we must also remember that Grievous has repulsor unit in his body.

Just checking.. is this confirmed?
I do agree that if it were true, it would help Kurgan reconcile his disbelief with Grievous' Jedi-like feats of agility shown in the Clone Wars microseries.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

What is with the seemingly knee-jerk reaction that the CW series can be discounted because, hey, it's got people doing cool shit, and it's a cartoon, so let's just ignore it?

I dont have too much of a problem with the CW continuity wise (other than the fact that it conflicts with LOE, but that can be explained away.)

However, there are two examples of what some would call "Uber Jedi wanking."
One, the whole Dantooine battle. Yes, Mace Windu is one BMF, but I cannot see him disassembling dozens of droids into thier component parts with the flick of a hand and without the slightest bit of exertion, and then later flying more than three miles in under four seconds. If he could really do all that, why didnt he just liquify Jango at a distance in AOTC?

Two, Yoda on Coruscant. Yes, he can lift an X-Wing, and he can leviate a senate pod under the direct control of Palpatine, but I just cannot picture him smashing half a dozen TF landers with only a bit of exertion, and wiping out a hundred Droidekas in a moment.

However, I do not think that GG exibited abilities are beyond reasonable. He simply did not have much opertunity to show them during ROTS (and he did to some extent in his fight with Obi.

Someone else already addressed the Mace Windu thing, although I'd say that as far as I can see, the only bit that seems out of the realm of feasibility for him would be the instant-disassembling bit, and even that could be possible if he was deep within a Force trance at the time; it's possible that he was just having a really good day. We've all had days when we're a good level of magnitude or two better at something than others, and Dantooine could have been that for Mace (while Geonosis was not).

It's also likely that, unlike Geonosis (where EVERYONE was, and Palpatine's attention was most likely focused at the time - and with it, the Dark Side shroud), Dantooine was just one of a hundred or so battles at the time, and the shroud may have thinned at that point, allowing Mace greater focus.


As for Yoda kicking ass and taking names on Coruscant? To tell the truth, I don't really find it that unbelievable for him. He is the greatest known Force-user in the galaxy (I'd say he would have bested Sidious, if it had not come down to a random fall where Sidious had something to grab and he did not), and he has shown the ability to focus the Force in multiple ways at once (remember the Imperial guards?).

Against mere droids, while not being actively shot at? No problem, just a question of effort.

Granted, a fairly major effort, but I'd say it's within the scope of Yoda's abilities.

Granted, a fairly major effort, but I'd say it's within the scope of Yoda's abilities.

I'll give you that, and if Yoda had been exhausted after that part of the battle, then I wouldnt have had so much of a problem with it, but instead of resting, or even stopping to catch a breath, its "off to jump on the Tauntaun-thingy and lightsaber your way through several hundred battle droids." It just seems over the top.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Granted, a fairly major effort, but I'd say it's within the scope of Yoda's abilities.

I'll give you that, and if Yoda had been exhausted after that part of the battle, then I wouldnt have had so much of a problem with it, but instead of resting, or even stopping to catch a breath, its "off to jump on the Tauntaun-thingy and lightsaber your way through several hundred battle droids." It just seems over the top.

Ever seen Samurai jack? same creator, it is supposed to be the ultimate :wank: jedi tale, even the troopers get a major power upgrade.

the .303 bookworm wrote:

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Granted, a fairly major effort, but I'd say it's within the scope of Yoda's abilities.

I'll give you that, and if Yoda had been exhausted after that part of the battle, then I wouldnt have had so much of a problem with it, but instead of resting, or even stopping to catch a breath, its "off to jump on the Tauntaun-thingy and lightsaber your way through several hundred battle droids." It just seems over the top.

Ever seen Samurai jack? same creator, it is supposed to be the ultimate :wank: jedi tale, even the troopers get a major power upgrade.

Yes, I have seen Samurai Jack. What does the creator's other work have to do with it?

Pure Sabacc wrote:

the .303 bookworm wrote:

Pure Sabacc wrote: I'll give you that, and if Yoda had been exhausted after that part of the battle, then I wouldnt have had so much of a problem with it, but instead of resting, or even stopping to catch a breath, its "off to jump on the Tauntaun-thingy and lightsaber your way through several hundred battle droids." It just seems over the top.

Ever seen Samurai jack? same creator, it is supposed to be the ultimate :wank: jedi tale, even the troopers get a major power upgrade.

Yes, I have seen Samurai Jack. What does the creator's other work have to do with it?

Theyre both made as "legends" the power of the characters varies greatly from each ep and has exceptionally weak enemies.
Yoda or Mace in the battle of Coruscant arent as fast in melee combat as Mace was on Dantooine, and on Dantooine lucasarts said (I think) that it was being told from the memory of the kid rancher who gives Mace his bottle, look at the jump Mace makes at the end of the episode to reach the boy, it's much greater than any other he makes in the rest of the series including the one to the seismic hammer.

Theyre both made as "legends" the power of the characters varies greatly from each ep and has exceptionally weak enemies.
Yoda or Mace in the battle of Coruscant arent as fast in melee combat as Mace was on Dantooine, and on Dantooine lucasarts said (I think) that it was being told from the memory of the kid rancher who gives Mace his bottle, look at the jump Mace makes at the end of the episode to reach the boy, it's much greater than any other he makes in the rest of the series including the one to the seismic hammer.

That is an interesting point. If they are taken fully as "legends" then the power discrepencies can be reconciled as the embelishments of the story teller, and CW wouldnt interfer with more reasonable literature (ie LOE.)