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What was Thrawn referring to in HTTE when he mentioned "the last minute TIE Fighter incompetence"? Did he expect the TIEs to nail the MF?

Seemed a little tough on the TIE pilots. I would have thought whether Palpatine-powered or not, they would have difficulty shooting down a fairly well-shielded target which many TIEs had failed to deal with before. Not to mention the MF's dorsal and ventral weapons (presumably these could shoot to the rear as well) that would keep the TIEs jumping (and hence probably crashing into the superstructure too).

The Rederation, Rebels and Trekkies will have no chance against the force of the wars fans and the empire. All will be crushed under our might. BOW BEFORE PALPATINE

But to be honest the series has always had its share of uncertain comments on the post-jedi galactic warfare battleplans.

Danny Bhoy wrote:What was Thrawn referring to in HTTE when he mentioned "the last minute TIE Fighter incompetence"? Did he expect the TIEs to nail the MF?

Seemed a little tough on the TIE pilots. I would have thought whether Palpatine-powered or not, they would have difficulty shooting down a fairly well-shielded target which many TIEs had failed to deal with before. Not to mention the MF's dorsal and ventral weapons (presumably these could shoot to the rear as well) that would keep the TIEs jumping (and hence probably crashing into the superstructure too).

The novelization mentions a disorganized response to the initial Rebel starfighter asssault, after the Emperor has been killed (the diffusion of the dark side effect referred to in the novelization ties into this).

As for their ability to shoot down the MF- the majority of the TIE fighters chased Rebel fighters that were heading back to the surface. Only two TIE Interceptors gave chase.

Gordonfrost wrote:The Rederation, Rebels and Trekkies will have no chance against the force of the wars fans and the empire. All will be crushed under our might. BOW BEFORE PALPATINE

WTF? Either shut the fuck up or contribute to the damn thread.

I think Thrawn meant that the TIEs were incompetent enough to let the enemy get into the superstructure despite their massive numerical superiority. Or maybe he overestimates the TIE pilots skill with Palpatine guiding them.

Thrawn stated this incompetance was after the Emperor was killed. We do not see it in RotJ as all, as the battle scenes end when the Death Star was blow up.

Crazedwraith wrote:Thrawn stated this incompetance was after the Emperor was killed. We do not see it in RotJ as all, as the battle scenes end when the Death Star was blow up.

Watch the movies again. The Emperor is dead before the Rebel fighters enter the superstructure, before Executor was destroyed, etc.

And the battle of Endor didn't end immediatly after the DSII was destroyed.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:And the battle of Endor didn't end immediatly after the DSII was destroyed.

Actually, it pretty much did. Several ISD had been destroyed, the Executor was gone, the DSII was gone, and the loss of the Emperor's Battle Meditation (to use a KOTOR term, it seems like the same technique) left the fleet in disarray. As I recall, Pellaeon ordered a retreat almost immediately after the DSII blew up.

Pure Sabacc wrote:Actually, it pretty much did. Several ISD had been destroyed, the Executor was gone, the DSII was gone, and the loss of the Emperor's Battle Meditation (to use a KOTOR term, it seems like the same technique) left the fleet in disarray. As I recall, Pellaeon ordered a retreat almost immediately after the DSII blew up.

Yeah, but some guys stayed behind. I know Grand Admiral Whathisface did. According to an article in Star Wars Insider (IIRC), the fight lasted for a couple hours after the Death Star was destroyed.

Vympel wrote:The novelization mentions a disorganized response to the initial Rebel starfighter asssault, after the Emperor has been killed (the diffusion of the dark side effect referred to in the novelization ties into this).

As for their ability to shoot down the MF- the majority of the TIE fighters chased Rebel fighters that were heading back to the surface. Only two TIE Interceptors gave chase.

I think Thrawn was running his mouth; no fighters with missiles entered the tunnel, and due to the superior reactor/shielding of the MF, none of them could individually have overcome it, and in the confines of the tunnel it'd be difficult for multiple fighters to score concurrent hits on the ship.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: I think Thrawn was running his mouth; no fighters with missiles entered the tunnel, and due to the superior reactor/shielding of the MF, none of them could individually have overcome it, and in the confines of the tunnel it'd be difficult for multiple fighters to score concurrent hits on the ship.

Their best chance would've been the reactor cavity. It's possible that if one of the TIEs had managed to shoot Wedge down, the Falcon's attack wouldn't have destroyed the Death Star, only knocked it out of action (going by the semantics of "power regulator" of course).

But I think Thrawn was right clearly on the strength on the novelization extract talking about the initial disorganized response before they even enter the super structure. Zahn clearly read the RotJ novelization before he wrote HTTE- which is to be commended.

Too bad he didn't read any Marvel or WEG Sourcebooks.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Too bad he didn't read any Marvel

The problem is no one did. It's too bad that only comic artists etc have the vision to appreciate scale- like that battleship in one of the recent comics.

or WEG Sourcebooks.

Well he must've, considering the use of a bunch of EU ships that WEG came up with in the first "real" EU novel (SotME doesn't count). Didn't help the minimalism any, unfortunately.

Vympel wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Too bad he didn't read any Marvel

The problem is no one did. It's too bad that only comic artists etc have the vision to appreciate scale- like that battleship in one of the recent comics.

I tend to put more blame on those who set precedent.

Vympel wrote:

or WEG Sourcebooks.

Well he must've, considering the use of a bunch of EU ships that WEG came up with in the first "real" EU novel (SotME doesn't count). Didn't help the minimalism any, unfortunately.

Yeah, but it goes back to Kaz's astute observation of people read WEG, but all the wrong bits: they get ugly lozenge and hot dog ships which ignore the scale and aesthetic of the films, but then they ignore the scale of the sheer sector-by-sector organization size demonstrated in the ISB, and totally forget about the Imperial Army. Cue the all-purpose stormtrooper and the military formations which threaten the galaxy which cannot match a single standard SECTGRU pound-for-pound (200 Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers are quite outmassed and outmatched by a single SECTGRU's 24 Imperator-class Star Destroyers).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think Thrawn was running his mouth; no fighters with missiles entered the tunnel, and due to the superior reactor/shielding of the MF, none of them could individually have overcome it, and in the confines of the tunnel it'd be difficult for multiple fighters to score concurrent hits on the ship.

Is the Falcon's shielding very effective compared to TIE fighter "laser" cannons?

I'd always kinda subconsciously seen that every time the Falcon got away, it was always just on the verge of losing its shields and being damaged/destroyed, but that was just me, mind you.

Cykeisme wrote:I'd always kinda subconsciously seen that every time the Falcon got away, it was always just on the verge of losing its shields and being damaged/destroyed, but that was just me, mind you.

In those instances, it was being pursued by multiple TIEs, which could attack simultaneously. In the tunnel, only one could at a time. As IP said, "none of them could individually have overcome [the shielding]" (emphasis mine). Groups of TIEs, however, not only would multiply the instantaneous firepower, but could attack from multiple vectors, and the Falcon seems to rely heavily upon angling its shields.

and totally forget about the Imperial Army.

Zahn has a better grasp than any of the authors about the difference between the army and ST corps. He's really the only one who differentiates between the two, and correctly used Army troops as the mainline troops with STs as an elite marine force.

gladius wrote:

and totally forget about the Imperial Army.

Zahn has a better grasp than any of the authors about the difference between the army and ST corps. He's really the only one who differentiates between the two, and correctly used Army troops as the mainline troops with STs as an elite marine force.

To be fair, Steve Perry of SOE made that distinction too.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:And the battle of Endor didn't end immediatly after the DSII was destroyed.

and the loss of the Emperor's Battle Meditation (to use a KOTOR term, it seems like the same technique)

He was able to use this technique while trying to convert and later fry the son of Skywalker? Didn't Battle Meditation require, well, meditation?

He was able to use this technique while trying to convert and later fry the son of Skywalker? Didn't Battle Meditation require, well, meditation?

I think Palpatine was a step up in power above both Bastilla and Ca'both. Perhaps he could multitask better.

As we learn in "Who is who of the Imperial Grand Admirals" it was GA Nial Declann, who provided the battle-meditation.

Didn't six ISDs get captured or destroyed after the DSII was blown up.

I know 2 where captured for sure, they where mentioned in the X-Wing novels, one was Emancipator and i forget the name of the other.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:I think Thrawn meant that the TIEs were incompetent enough to let the enemy get into the superstructure despite their massive numerical superiority. Or maybe he overestimates the TIE pilots skill with Palpatine guiding them.

I thought that the TIE numerical superiority was pretty well gone by the time the shield went down, due to losses when they were commited without ISD support in the "keep them from escaping" phase of the battle.