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Okay, we've all heard that statement from Anakin in Episode III by now. Obi-Wan's reply is "then you are lost!"

The question is... what is Anakin's reasoning for this?


I mean... he just became a Sith, what, a day or two ago?

Has he been so indoctrinated that he believes Darth Bane's ancestors were following the "true path" of the Force and the war against them by the Jedi Order was unjust (even if the Sith were just as much their own enemies as the Jedi, the Jedi should have "accepted and tolerated" them)?

Is he claiming they are "evil" because they didn't give him Mastership?

Evil because Mace Windu gave him the back of his hand in front of the Council?

Evil because he believes that Obi-Wan was secretly banging his wife?

Or does he honestly buy Palpatine's BS spouting that the Jedi suddenly, for no reason other than to gain "ultimate powah" tried to assasinate the Chancellor and take over the Senate? Hook, line and sinker? He never catches on that Palpy is responsible for the war?

Is he just nuts?

What's his "point of view"?

I didn't think he was a 21st century earth neo-con who thinks that the Jedi Order was an old and corrupt group of royalist noble supermen and therefore deserved to be wiped out of existence to make way for "law and order for the good of all"... and he obviously doesn't care about kids (except maybe his own, when it suites him), so we can't pull the "Jedi are kidnappers!" spiel here either...


Anakin: Qui Gon! You told me I had no father!

Qui Gon: Darth Plagueis, using the Dark Side of the Force, influenced the midichlorians to create life. When he did that, the good theme that was the non-existence of your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view...

Anakin: A certain point of view?!

Qui Gon: You'll come to realize many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Perhaps it had something to do with Yoda telling him that he really should learn to let his friends die and even rejoice that they had "become one with the Force". They'd told him he couldn't go to help his mother before, and now they were telling him he couldn't help Padme. Sort of a "you can't use your powers to save your friends; you can only use them as we tell you to" situation.

Mace Windu's preparedness to kill the "helpless" Palpatine also upset him.

And by the time he faced Obi-Wan, the Dark Side had been seriously screwing with his mind for hours, too.

The best lies are those that are partly true. Palpatine wasn't entirely lying when he said the Jedi wanted to stage a coup to get rid of him. And, oh gee, they did! On top of that, what Ted C said about Yoda telling Anakin that he shouldn't care about the people he, well, cares about...it's antithetical to just about everyone's "natural" belief system. I suspect this is partly why the OJO recruited so young: they wanted to ensure that the belief system of the child about right/wrong wasn't fully formed yet. Anakin's was already well on its way, and TPM for all its faults does inform us that young Anakin was quite set in his "I don't want things to change" ways already. The Jedi philosophy ran entirely counter to this, leading to Anakin's ultimate decision that the Jedi are evil.

From his point of view, he's right. Were any of us thrust into a similar situation, I suspect we'd agree with him. I would/do.

I thought he said that they were evil because they were going to let Padme die. Funny what he did, then.

I kind of got the idea that it was simply a thoughtless response he tossed off. He was angry and just blurted it out. Kind of like a little kid that "hates" their parents. He thought they were "evil" but he really ahdn't thought out how or why.

The Jedi were evil, according to Anakin, because they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Immature thinking usually employs this very simplistic view of morality: don't give me what I want = evil. That's why 2 year olds throw tantrums when they can't get candy.

Darth Wong wrote:The Jedi were evil, according to Anakin, because they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Immature thinking usually employs this very simplistic view of morality: don't give me what I want = evil. That's why 2 year olds throw tantrums when they can't get candy.

Given that what Anakin wanted wasn't any more demanding than what your average Joe wants, this isn't an appropriate analogy and, I think, unfairly falls back on the extremely tired "Anakin is a whiny kid" mindset. The Jedi conception of how one's life is to be lived is one that directly conflicted with Anakin's own moral compasse, as set in motion by TPM. While he at times certainly came off as an immature individual, his motivations were ultimately driven by a desire to protect (Padme) and do good (for the Republic, in that he didn't think the Jedi were right to stage an all-out coup, even after Palpatine was revealed to be a Sith Lord). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

McC wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The Jedi were evil, according to Anakin, because they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Immature thinking usually employs this very simplistic view of morality: don't give me what I want = evil. That's why 2 year olds throw tantrums when they can't get candy.

Given that what Anakin wanted wasn't any more demanding than what your average Joe wants, this isn't an appropriate analogy and, I think, unfairly falls back on the extremely tired "Anakin is a whiny kid" mindset. The Jedi conception of how one's life is to be lived is one that directly conflicted with Anakin's own moral compasse, as set in motion by TPM. While he at times certainly came off as an immature individual, his motivations were ultimately driven by a desire to protect (Padme) and do good (for the Republic, in that he didn't think the Jedi were right to stage an all-out coup, even after Palpatine was revealed to be a Sith Lord). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

Except that no one was forcing him to be a Jedi. As Dooku showed, you can freely leave the Order if you want.

McC wrote:Given that what Anakin wanted wasn't any more demanding than what your average Joe wants, this isn't an appropriate analogy and, I think, unfairly falls back on the extremely tired "Anakin is a whiny kid" mindset. The Jedi conception of how one's life is to be lived is one that directly conflicted with Anakin's own moral compasse, as set in motion by TPM. While he at times certainly came off as an immature individual, his motivations were ultimately driven by a desire to protect (Padme) and do good (for the Republic, in that he didn't think the Jedi were right to stage an all-out coup, even after Palpatine was revealed to be a Sith Lord). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

I find Anakin/Vader's base motivation is the maxim "blood is thicker than water".

Exhibit A: Disobeys Jedi Council edict in order to rush to the aid of his mother. His mother dies, he snaps and kills the Tuskens that kidnapped her. IMHO, this also established a so-far unconscious resentment of the Jedi Masters, since if they had allowed him to return earlier he may have been able to prevent her death.
Exhibit B: He helps Palpatine destroy the Jedi Order on the hope that Palpatine would teach him how to prevent Padme's death. His talk with Yoda probably reminded him too much of Exhibit A, strengthening his resentment of the Jedi and accelerating his fall. The final straw is when Mace Windu is about to kill Palpatine, who appears to Anakin (granted that it was an act) to be a helpless opponent. That one of the most famous Jedi Masters was about to blatantly and willfully break one of the edicts they had pounded into Anakin's skull from day 1 probably made Anakin finally say to himself, "Fuck these hypocrites." In a cruel twist of fate, he is responsible for Padme's death, resulting in the bitter, hateful man we meet in Episode IV.
Exhibit C: Despite the whole "Join us or die" and "Don't make me destroy you" act, ever since he learned that Luke was alive he showed absolutely no desire and made no real attempt to kill his son. No question, he wanted Luke alive. Luke was all that was left of his family (as far as he knew), and so every action Vader made against Luke was with the intent of taking him alive (stopping the fight after cutting off the hand and disarming Luke, trying to stop the Falcon with the Executor's tractor beams instead of turbolasers when Luke was on board, etc.). Finally, when Palpatine was zapping Luke and it became apparent to Vader that Palpatine was giving up the attempt at turning Luke and settling for killing him, he turned on the Emperor and killed him.

Darth Wong wrote:

McC wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The Jedi were evil, according to Anakin, because they wouldn't give him what he wanted. Immature thinking usually employs this very simplistic view of morality: don't give me what I want = evil. That's why 2 year olds throw tantrums when they can't get candy.

Given that what Anakin wanted wasn't any more demanding than what your average Joe wants, this isn't an appropriate analogy and, I think, unfairly falls back on the extremely tired "Anakin is a whiny kid" mindset. The Jedi conception of how one's life is to be lived is one that directly conflicted with Anakin's own moral compasse, as set in motion by TPM. While he at times certainly came off as an immature individual, his motivations were ultimately driven by a desire to protect (Padme) and do good (for the Republic, in that he didn't think the Jedi were right to stage an all-out coup, even after Palpatine was revealed to be a Sith Lord). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

Except that no one was forcing him to be a Jedi. As Dooku showed, you can freely leave the Order if you want.

Anakin looked to be suffering the Dark Side equilivent of "roid rage". Steroid users often suffer wild mood swings and will fly into near homicidal rages after only slight provocation. Sith are passionate, emotionally uncontrolled (from our perspective) individuals anger, hatred, and rage fuels their connection to the Dark Side. What might look like a two-year old temper tantrum might have been Anakin's way of sustaining the frenzy needed to continue fighting.

Darth Wong wrote:Except that no one was forcing him to be a Jedi. As Dooku showed, you can freely leave the Order if you want.

Peer pressure is an unbelievably strong motivator. Anakin was being told right and left he was the Chosen One. Whether or not he actually had a choice is irrelevant to whether or not he believed he had a choice.

CivilWarMan wrote: Exhibit A: Disobeys Jedi Council edict in order to rush to the aid of his mother. His mother dies, he snaps and kills the Tuskens that kidnapped her. IMHO, this also established a so-far unconscious resentment of the Jedi Masters, since if they had allowed him to return earlier he may have been able to prevent her death.

I wondered about this too, if the boy is worried about his mother why not send a runner with a couple of credits to at least buy her way into freedom.
For all their wisdom they apparently turned a blind eye to the wellbeing of his mother, and just expected a young boy to completely abandon her to slavery.

Really though, how many 8 year old boys could just up and leave their loving parents in chains and forget about them for the rest of their lives? Sorry I am just ranting now...

My interpretation of Anakin's fall is that he turned on Windu and saved Palpatine almost entirely to save Padme. Palpatine looking helpless was just an excuse; Anakin would have probably killed Palpatine himself earlier if the Padme card hadn't come into play. Then, once Anakin willfully accepts the dark side and becomes Darth Vader, Palpatine goes into his head and completely twists Anakin's mind. Normally this sort of mind control would be impossible, but because Anakin chose to join the Sith, Sidious was able to completely convert him in a matter of minutes. This ties in with the later words of Vader in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." So Anakin at the time of his battle with Obi-Wan was virtually a different person who truly believed that the Jedi were evil and deserved to be destroyed, albeit for totally irrational reasons.