StarDestroyer.Net BBS

So the question is a simple one: Say we have a new generation that hasn't seen the Prequels or the OT and they see it in order I-VI do you think ILM did a good job of not making the visuals so amazing in the prequels that it would make the OT look cheap in comparison?

Frankly, especially with the SE OT I think the changeover is not bad at all. There's nothing too jarring in the OT to make it that much different than the prequels save in the dept of aliens like Jabba the Hutt for example which IMO has not aged well in comparison to what we've seen like Jar Jar and other CGI'd aliens and even CGI Jabba himself.

What are your thoughts on this?

The visual effects for the most part have held their own very well. The only scene that really stands out in my mind that is showing its age is the Obi-Wan / Vader fight in Star Wars. I think the drop in quality is very noticeable and dates the film considerable.

Of the three films, ANH would be the only one that would slightly approach a dated feel. However, I still find most of the aliens in the bar scene to very believable. The Jawas are especially well done.The Death Star combat scenes still hold their own, especially the shots entering the long trench. Its a very beautiful and well though out POV shot. I still think Luke's run is one of the best composed scenes of the entire trilogy. Perhaps the only thing that shows its age a little in the space battles are the smaller number of ships.

There is very little that seems dated in my mind about ESB or ROTJ. I still like Frank Oz's Yoda and I think having the more limited puppet (in terms of motion) ages Yoda quite nicely and adds a sense of mystery and nobleness to his character. I think the fact Yoda still works so well in ESB is quite the nod to the puppeter's skills. I did not find anything dated in the battle on the planet Hoth . The Vader/Luke lightsaber scene is my favorite of all the lightsaber scenes both for the music, the color/lighting, the dialogue, and the emotional impact of the scene. I still find it to be very mesmerizing; I do not cringe a little while watching the ESB fight as I do while watching the ANH one. It may not have the moves and spinning of the prequel fights, but it is still very believable and not once do you question the abilities of the sword fighters or become distracted by the "cheapness" of the effect.

Understandably, ROTJ has held and probably well hold its own for the longest. A marvelous acheivement in terms of F/X. The second Luke/Vader scene is very amazing to watch and the space battle perhaps even more so. Despite this, I still prefer the ANH battle although it lacks some of the eye candy.

Edits: Added more substance.
Edits: Periods are amazing things.

Stravo wrote:save in the dept of aliens like Jabba the Hutt for example which IMO has not aged well in comparison to what we've seen like Jar Jar and other CGI'd aliens and even CGI Jabba himself.

The updated CG Jabba model created for TPM was re-animated and used in the DVD edition of ANH. It looks much better now, and is far less jarring.

Stravo wrote: Say we have a new generation that hasn't seen the Prequels or the OT and they see it in order I-VI do you think ILM did a good job of not making the visuals so amazing in the prequels that it would make the OT look cheap in comparison?
What are your thoughts on this?

Perhaps I should answer the actual question rather than give my thoughts on whether or not the OT has become dated.

I think ILM made their job slightly easier (with respect to VFX differences between OT and the PT) by using longer, large scale shots of battles and scenes in the PT. Most shots in the OT are fairly close, even the action ones. In the ANH space battle scenes, we see shots that mainly frame only a few craft. We see lots of cuts within the cockpits, or shots of one fighter trailing another; combat is made very intimate and close.

In the ESB ground battle we see shots that tend to frame only a few Rebel soldiers, or a few snowspeeders, or perhaps a Walker firing. Again, we see cuts of cockpits and several POV shots of the speeders attacking the walkers. Even the shots of the Rebels in the trenches show small groups of them perhaps setting up a gun, or bracing themselves against the wall preparing the fire. The only long shot I can remember in which you see something approaching more of an epic battle is the shot of the three walkers firing at the retreating soldiers. Again, combat for the most part is kept close and personal. When the soldiers invade the base, you do not see hundreds of stormtroopers swarm the base. Instead its mainly medium shots of Vader leading the way with stormtroopers right behind him.

In some respects, ROTJ bucks this trend in that we do see more large scale combat. For example, when Lando and the other fighters overfly the Star Destroyers, we see that the entire scene is filled with ships. Or when the Empire's fighters first swarm the rebels, we are given a view of a large and epic space battle. However, again, many of the shots show individual Rebel pilots in their cockpits and follow their actions and view through the battle (Red Leader shooting down fighters attacking the medical frigate, the pilots who are hit and destroyed, Gold Leader flying in the Death Star.) In the ground battle on Endor, we see mainly individual / small group combat with one exception of the long shot showing the entire legion of the Emperor's troops. But again, close combat is largely the norm as we see Luke fight one or two speeders, close shots of Ewoks hitting Walkers, close shots of logs destroying walkers, etc.

I feel that a different scale of combat is seen in the PT, and because of this, ILM is able to be more carefree in using amazing VFX without making the OT appear to be dated. Consider the large land battles on Naboo, AOTC, and in ROTS. There is very little for us to compare these scenes to in the OT other than ESB, and for the most part, that battle in my mind appears to focus more on the individual. In the PT, we see long shots of hundreds of Jedi fighting robots, hundreds of clones charging robots, hundreds of Gungans? fighting robots, etc. There is a very epic feel to many of these shots. Sure there are many instances of shots showing personal and small combat, but these compare rather favorable with the OT. I think the technology gap is much more apparant in composing larger scenes rather than shots showing for example, Leia firing a blaster at stormtroopers. The OT still holds it own for the most part with those.

The one area in which CG and the VFX advances really helps is giving a sense of a large epic battle with thousands of combatants. Since we never really see this in the OT, we do not make a direct comparision and thus the films are able to hold their age quite well. With respect to the space battles, ILM's job on ROTJ was very good and the difference is not great enough between the two trilogies to become apparant.

Two other areas in which perhaps ILM also made more of a leap (not necessarily a bad thing) are the lightsaber scenes and scenes involving the force (especially pushing with the force). We are treated to some amazing shots showing this aspect of Star Wars in the PT.

And it works because of the story. In the OT, its a small band of rebels versus a large Galactic Empire. Its easy to focus on the individual, and by avoiding depictions of large scale battles, it also highlights both the resources of the Rebellion and how much they are in fact, the underdog. In the PT, large scale combat becomes much more believable and expected as a large separatist movement containing tens of thousands of systems should be in large epic battles with a Republic also containing tens of thousands of systems (or more, I don't really know). I think that ILM overall did a very nice job with the FX, and by presenting a somewhat different scale of Star Wars that is not seen in the OT, VFX improvements between OT and PT become less noticeable.

The updated CG Jabba model created for TPM was re-animated and used in the DVD edition of ANH. It looks much better now, and is far less jarring.

I think he was refering to ROTJ 'puppet' Jabba. It´s still good, but he seems less animated and "dynamic" compared to his TPM/ANH SE self.

With the two revisions so far, the PT/OT gap really isn´t that big any more. Have you seen how shiny Cloud City is in the ESB/ROTJ DVDs? It rates up there with several PT locals. Then there´s Theed and Coruscant in the victory montage (which now seems similar to the 'Order 66' sequence in ROTS, another parallel), a few CG aliens and monsters, cleaned stop-motion FX etc. I´m pretty sure there will be some more additions, but most of the work is done, the existing FX holds up well, and there´s plenty of interesting, non-CG and non-humanoid aliens too.

Personally I have no love for the el-crappo rotoscoping in ANH and would like to see it edited out completely, if possible. When Luke activates the lightsabre for the first time it's really jarring.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned yet that I noticed is the way the ships move. However, this is only a problem in ANH, not the entire OT.

In the PT, TESB, and RotJ, the ships appear much more realistic in their movements. The opening scene of ANH, while brilliant in all other parts, looks very fake in the cut where the turbolaser shot refracts through the shield of the Tantive IV. The Devastator approaching the Death Star, while not particularly bad, looks somehow off. The Falcon is another problem ship, and outside of the takeoff scenes, almost looks "immobile". This is especially apparent in the scene where it fights off the four TIEs.

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:The Falcon is another problem ship, and outside of the takeoff scenes, almost looks "immobile". This is especially apparent in the scene where it fights off the four TIEs.

I had assumed that was deliberately modeled after WW II air combat footage where fighters are shown engaging bombers. The bombers typically look almost stationary in such footage.

Stravo wrote:So the question is a simple one: Say we have a new generation that hasn't seen the Prequels or the OT and they see it in order I-VI do you think ILM did a good job of not making the visuals so amazing in the prequels that it would make the OT look cheap in comparison?

I see it more a contrast between the shining Republic and the "dark times". The OT tends to be pale and utilitarian, with everything executed as economically as possible, wheras the PT is garish and elaborate, with graceful depictions of action. With the exception of ANH, I really don't see the OT's VFX, as cheap, but just subdued.

Srynerson wrote:I had assumed that was deliberately modeled after WW II air combat footage where fighters are shown engaging bombers. The bombers typically look almost stationary in such footage.

The filmmakers did indeed study old combat footage as inspiration. In fact, the entire trench run scene in ANH is essentially a redo of the attack on the dam in "The Dambusters" which is a film from 1954 about the RAF's attack the Ruhr Dams during the war.

FSTargetDrone wrote:

Srynerson wrote:I had assumed that was deliberately modeled after WW II air combat footage where fighters are shown engaging bombers. The bombers typically look almost stationary in such footage.

The filmmakers did indeed study old combat footage as inspiration.

Yes, I knew that, which is why I mentioned it. I was just pointing to a specific sort of footage that scene may have been modeled after.

Seeing Vader's (oddly disturbing, since it no longer resembles a human face) symetrical and gleaming shiney helmet at the end of ROTS makes its asymetrical (more like a real face) dirty and rough-hewn looking helmet in ANH much more jarring. Of course his helmet gets all polished and shiny again in ESB, so go figure. Vader was just walking through a bunch of smoke and stuff so I guess that dirtied up his helmet (I guess he had his suit waxed to retard moisture for those scenes with the carbon freeze chamber in ESB).

Seeing Palpatine so insane and giggly as Sideous in ROTS is somewhat jarring for the sedate and almost doped up performance he gives in the 2004 edit of ESB (though brief). Still, I guess he hasn't had anything to really cackle maniacally about for 24 years...

The crappy color job done on the sabers in the 2004 editions looks odd compared to the "perfect" color of AOTC & RotS.

Actually, I think the TPM sabers look the best. They are sort of ethereal looking and glowy, casting light about. It's the same effect we had in the OT's but with the benefit of modern VFX to look like more what we'd expect "real" lightsabers to be like. The sabers in AOTC & RotS have a more "computer decal" look to them (almost cartoony), like they were slapped on and don't actually belong in the rest of the scene. Don't get me wrong, they look cool, but when compared, I'd take the TPM sabers.

Kurgan wrote:Seeing Vader's (oddly disturbing, since it no longer resembles a human face) symetrical and gleaming shiney helmet at the end of ROTS makes its asymetrical (more like a real face) dirty and rough-hewn looking helmet in ANH much more jarring. Of course his helmet gets all polished and shiny again in ESB, so go figure. Vader was just walking through a bunch of smoke and stuff so I guess that dirtied up his helmet (I guess he had his suit waxed to retard moisture for those scenes with the carbon freeze chamber in ESB).

You know his meditation chamber has got to have a helmet washer up top there. And a little buffing with some Rain Dance and he'll have water beading again in no time.

Kurgan wrote:Seeing Vader's (oddly disturbing, since it no longer resembles a human face) symetrical and gleaming shiney helmet at the end of ROTS makes its asymetrical (more like a real face) dirty and rough-hewn looking helmet in ANH much more jarring. Of course his helmet gets all polished and shiny again in ESB, so go figure. Vader was just walking through a bunch of smoke and stuff so I guess that dirtied up his helmet (I guess he had his suit waxed to retard moisture for those scenes with the carbon freeze chamber in ESB).

Don't forget that he's also been gallivanting around the galaxy killing things for 20 years. That would definitely age a suit, however, the most immediate reason for it not being 'teh SHINY' would be the fact that he has been trying to get those plans back for quite some time, and presumably has not had a chance to get his suit cleaned after several battles/'interrogations'.

The closing scene in ROTS gives me the impression the filmmakers kept the OT in their minds while making this movie. Uncle Owen and Aunt ? staring at the two suns ties in very nicely with the shot of Luke staring at the same two suns in ANH. I think ILM was aware of the challenge of making all six films somewhat integrated from an aesthetics and VFX standpoint.

Dangermouse wrote:The closing scene in ROTS gives me the impression the filmmakers kept the OT in their minds while making this movie. Uncle Owen and Aunt ? staring at the two suns ties in very nicely with the shot of Luke staring at the same two suns in ANH.

Aunt Beru.