StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It annoyed me in the initial viewing of ROTS when Palpatine was reduced to his cackling giggling, mincing moron who in the midst of the battle for his life and the Empire he wants to create puts his hands to his mouth like Doctor Evil and acts like a moronic 4 color villain. Yet after and before the fights he is a cold calculating monster.

However when you think about it there might be a very good reason for this. A Sith is a creature of passion (Anakin's conversation with Palpatine at the opera) and as such relies on their rage and anger to drive their strength. The anger just can't come from thin air.

Try to become angry right now as you read it and you can see how hard that is. So how does a Sith do it, how does he bring his A-Game when he suddenly needs it in a fight? Perhaps they need a focussing method, something that makes their rage rise or act as a catalyst. The Sith that we saw in the movies were:

Darth Maul
Darth Tryannus
Darth Vader
Darth Sidious.

Maul was a pitbull, all glares, intimidation and cold smiles. The guy never said a word in combat and relied on his intimidating appearance and coldblooded manner to initimdate his foes and psych himself up.

Tyrannus was a taunter: "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me." "I am more powerful than any Jedi." "Good, twice the power double the fall." He drew his strength from his rage as he looked down at those whom he thought he surpassed and taunted them, acting as his focus for his rage. Not only was Dooku smarter but wittier too.

Vader was a cold fuming anger kind of guy. The Vader in PT was angry and vicious, cutting down his foes with a fury and threw himself into his fights, constantly showing off and showing how much more powerful he was. In OT you might even say Vader used a combination of all of the previous Sith Lord's focus methods. Cold intimidation in the Second part of the ESB Duel. He never says a word as he batters Luke's defenses down. Taunter in the first half of the ESB duel as well as the ANH duel. Added these to his own cold furious rage.


Sidious - now, here we have the Sith Lord of all his previous apprentices. He is probably a psychopath and his 'thing' if you will is to become a giggling gibbering bastard. He cackles, he laughs and that is what helps him focus and fuel his rage. Plus its fucking unnerving to fight a guy who is obviously fucking insane.

Any thoughts on this?

It annoyed me in the initial viewing of ROTS when Palpatine was reduced to his cackling giggling, mincing moron who in the midst of the battle for his life and the Empire he wants to create puts his hands to his mouth like Doctor Evil and acts like a moronic 4 color villain.

It did?! I thought it was fucking hilarious, the guy´s a demented genious and it showed.

I guess it´s just in his character, taking great risks at important crossroads and, like with Yoda, having fun with it.

That seem to make sense as Dath Revan, Darth Bandon, Darth Malak and Darth Sion (KOTOR(1&2) sith) do that also (Malak, Sion and Bandon taunt and Revan uses the stare method combined with wordless taunt (the "sword beside the head" stance)

Stravo wrote:However when you think about it there might be a very good reason for this. A Sith is a creature of passion (Anakin's conversation with Palpatine at the opera) and as such relies on their rage and anger to drive their strength. The anger just can't come from thin air.

Does passion have to be just anger and hate? I mean, Palpatine certainly seemed to be getting more than a few kicks from his fight with Yoda. Especially when he was flinging those Senate pods at the little guy.

Maybe he was revelling in the destruction of the Jedi. He had just wiped out most of them with Order 66, acquired the Chosen One as his apprentice, and presumeably he thought he could destroy Yoda. This was the culminating fulfillment of his career as a Sith lord. His grand design was going to be capped with him taking out the green guy.

I never got the impression his cackling was from anger. Maybe malice, which underlies his entire attitude towards the Jedi, but also, now that I think about it, egotistical satisfaction and glee.

I thought that Sidious' behavior in ROTS ruined the character. It was right after the fight with Mace Windu that it happened....Sidious was hamming it up in the worst way, with his shrieking and braying and that wide-eyed crazy look that he gave to Anakin when he said "GOOOOOOOOOOOD!". I broke down into a fit of uncontrolable giggles at that point. His antics during the fight with Yoda weren't much better....it was like he was channeling Tommy Lee Jones all of the sudden. Sidious worked much better when he was in the shadows: distant, powerful, and menacing.

And all that said, he was still the best performance in the film.

Stravo wrote:It annoyed me in the initial viewing of ROTS when Palpatine was reduced to his cackling giggling, mincing moron who in the midst of the battle for his life and the Empire he wants to create puts his hands to his mouth like Doctor Evil and acts like a moronic 4 color villain.

I thought it showed him quite well, like even in this situation he isn't frightened.
Yoda's fighting to save his little green butt, and Sidious is just giggling away having the time of his life.

Levels upon levels of confusion by the master of manipulation.

I think it would be more initimidating to fight someone who seemed to be laughing off my attacks than someone who stayed quiet.

Against "someone" maybe, but what about Yoda? Does the novelization show us what he was thinking during his battle with Palpatine?

Maybe it's just me but I never thought that it was an act on Palpatine's part. I thought it was genuine raw passion. He had already been in the lightsaber duel with Yoda that seemed to be a draw. He was probably already pumped up by the time he started jumping around and tossing senate pods.

There's not that much difference between cackling hobgoblin Palpatine from RotS and Palpatine in RotJ. He cackles and puts the same kind of emphasis on the same words in both.

He cackles when he's walking with Vader from the shuttle.

He cackles when Luke takes his weapon to strike him down with it, and Vader blocks him.

He cackles when Luke kicks Vader down the stairs.

He says "goooooooood" in the same manner in both films.

etc

Only difference is he's not in a fight in RotJ. I liked Palpatine's manic cackling.

Kenoshi wrote:I thought that Sidious' behavior in ROTS ruined the character. It was right after the fight with Mace Windu that it happened....Sidious was hamming it up in the worst way, with his shrieking and braying and that wide-eyed crazy look that he gave to Anakin when he said "GOOOOOOOOOOOD!". I broke down into a fit of uncontrolable giggles at that point. His antics during the fight with Yoda weren't much better....it was like he was channeling Tommy Lee Jones all of the sudden. Sidious worked much better when he was in the shadows: distant, powerful, and menacing.

How is a maniac supposed to act? He has just fufilled the goal of the Sith for a millenia, and he is obviously reveling in the attempted destruction of the head of the Jedi Order. Really, did you miss the bit in ROTJ when Palpatine cackles with glee as he's getting ready to toast Luke?

And all that said, he was still the best performance in the film.

Thanks for the needless "ROTS SUXXORS" crap. There are different threads for that.

Of course I could be overthinking this. Palpatine might simply be over the top insane.

I love Palpatine's insane cackle. It'd be way more intimidated in a fight if my opponent was laughing hysterically at me than if he was controlled. You can't predict what an insane person will do. He might throw caution to the winds and just go, well, nuts. It's not just in RotS either. As someone pointed out, he cackles in RotJ a lot. He's a manipulator, and he gets off on watching his plans unfold just the way he wants. Plus, during the fight between him and Yoda, he's fulfilling a life-long dream: the extermination of the Jedi and the little green dude. He's got the right to cackle like a giddy school boy.

I can honestly say that I've never been bothered by Palpatine's laughter; it just seems like appropriate behavior for a maniacal villain. I do like Stravo's attempted rationalization, however.

Also, he'd just succeeded, he was obviously in a good mood.

I mean, come on, he honestly 'knew' he was going to win, or that Darth Vader would avenge him, and it probably struck him as funny Yoda was bothering to fight him.


Just like in ROTJ, it was win-win for him as far as he knew. Rebellion crushed + new apprentice, or Rebellion crushed and same apprentice.

Either way, he was in a good mood

applejack wrote:

Stravo wrote:However when you think about it there might be a very good reason for this. A Sith is a creature of passion (Anakin's conversation with Palpatine at the opera) and as such relies on their rage and anger to drive their strength. The anger just can't come from thin air.

Does passion have to be just anger and hate? I mean, Palpatine certainly seemed to be getting more than a few kicks from his fight with Yoda. Especially when he was flinging those Senate pods at the little guy.

Maybe he was revelling in the destruction of the Jedi. He had just wiped out most of them with Order 66, acquired the Chosen One as his apprentice, and presumeably he thought he could destroy Yoda. This was the culminating fulfillment of his career as a Sith lord. His grand design was going to be capped with him taking out the green guy.

I never got the impression his cackling was from anger. Maybe malice, which underlies his entire attitude towards the Jedi, but also, now that I think about it, egotistical satisfaction and glee.

I'm inclined to agree. Augie is not just driven by hate (he's a Sith he obviously hates the Jedi) and anger, but he has malice and lust, the latter obviously for the destruction of the Jedi and for Ultimate Power (TM). Malice and lust are dark side emotions as much as hate and anger, fear and aggression.

Of course he also does seem a few raisins short of a fruitcake, but that doesn't mean he can't scheme.

Palpatine gets off on evilness, even if it's his own. Look at the way he reacts when Anakin is holding the lightsabre at his throat, just after he confesses to being a Sith Lord.

"I can feeeel your anger ..."

Look at his expressions, his body language. He derives an almost sexual thrill from the waves of anger that are coming from Anakin. And I think he revels in his own evil as well; he enjoys the exercise and the sensation of evil. That's what makes him a psychopath, and it's also what drives his "cackling madman" behaviour. When the gloves come off, the psycho comes out.

Darth Wong wrote:Palpatine gets off on evilness, even if it's his own. Look at the way he reacts when Anakin is holding the lightsabre at his throat, just after he confesses to being a Sith Lord.

"I can feeeel your anger ..."

Look at his expressions, his body language. He derives an almost sexual thrill from the waves of anger that are coming from Anakin. And I think he revels in his own evil as well; he enjoys the exercise and the sensation of evil. That's what makes him a psychopath, and it's also what drives his "cackling madman" behaviour. When the gloves come off, the psycho comes out.

The best part of that scene was that line- he said the exact seem thing to Luke in RotJ, and he did it in the exact same way. It's good to know he didn't forget how he spoke his old lines. I think he likes the power of evil- his "gives you focus, makes you strongarrrrr" would tend towards that.

Noble Ire wrote:

Kenoshi wrote:I thought that Sidious' behavior in ROTS ruined the character. It was right after the fight with Mace Windu that it happened....Sidious was hamming it up in the worst way, with his shrieking and braying and that wide-eyed crazy look that he gave to Anakin when he said "GOOOOOOOOOOOD!". I broke down into a fit of uncontrolable giggles at that point. His antics during the fight with Yoda weren't much better....it was like he was channeling Tommy Lee Jones all of the sudden. Sidious worked much better when he was in the shadows: distant, powerful, and menacing.

How is a maniac supposed to act? He has just fufilled the goal of the Sith for a millenia, and he is obviously reveling in the attempted destruction of the head of the Jedi Order. Really, did you miss the bit in ROTJ when Palpatine cackles with glee as he's getting ready to toast Luke?

And all that said, he was still the best performance in the film.

Thanks for the needless "ROTS SUXXORS" crap. There are different threads for that.

Hey, no problem. I paid the price of admission, I had my hopes dashed, I reserve the right to complain just a little. Just a smidgeon of bitchiness.

Anyhoo, I disagree that Sidious was a maniac. I think that someone who is able to orchestrate such an elaborate deception, playing all sides against each other, over a course of years and pull it all off with near perfection is a friggin' genius. A mere maniac just could not pull that kind of stuff off...sure they might be able to lead people on for a while but then they'd go all coo coo for Cocoa Puffs and do something crazy and blow their cover. No....Sidious was smoother than that. He was a pro. Sure, he was allowed a cackle now and then or maybe even a healthy dose of villanous laughter when a plan was executed particularly well.

But there's a line between a slightly deranged genius and over the top cartoon supervillany....and I'm of the opinion that he crossed that line in ROTS. Bad form.

Anyhoo, I disagree that Sidious was a maniac. I think that someone who is able to orchestrate such an elaborate deception, playing all sides against each other, over a course of years and pull it all off with near perfection is a friggin' genius. A mere maniac just could not pull that kind of stuff off...sure they might be able to lead people on for a while but then they'd go all coo coo for Cocoa Puffs and do something crazy and blow their cover. No....Sidious was smoother than that. He was a pro. Sure, he was allowed a cackle now and then or maybe even a healthy dose of villanous laughter when a plan was executed particularly well.

But there's a line between a slightly deranged genius and over the top cartoon supervillany....and I'm of the opinion that he crossed that line in ROTS. Bad form.

The concept of an insane genius is a fairly common one, in fiction and in reality. Hannibal Lecture comes to mind. As does Napoleon, Hitler (perhaps not a real genius, but he was a talented and inciting orrator), and a wide variety of serial killers. High levels off skill intellectually and socially, and the genius' mindset can often lead to the very madness you describe as "cartoony and unrealistic." Palpatine was a brilliant mastermind, and his insanity makes him a more believable character.

The concept of an insane genius is a fairly common one, in fiction and in reality. Hannibal Lecture comes to mind. As does Napoleon, Hitler (perhaps not a real genius, but he was a talented and inciting orrator), and a wide variety of serial killers. High levels off skill intellectually and socially, and the genius' mindset can often lead to the very madness you describe as "cartoony and unrealistic." Palpatine was a brilliant mastermind, and his insanity makes him a more believable character.

I agree that genius and madness often go hand in hand and I do agree that a certain level of eccentricity make a villain more interesting. I just think Sidious crossed a line in this case. I mean, at least it wasn't Baron Harkonnen levels of barking madness, but it just seemed a little too much considering how he's behaved in the other films. Who am I to judge a meglomaniac who successfully took over the galaxy and overthrew the Jedi order after masterfully carrying through a plot that was a thousand years in the making? That's a lot more than your average dictator could ever hope to accomplish. So maybe he does deserve to let his hair down a bit, but sheesh. Show a little professionalism, Sidious.

but it just seemed a little too much considering how he's behaved in the other films.

He is quite in character with his preformance in ROTJ (he was putting on a charade in TPM and AOTC, and he was only in ESB for a very brief scene.) In that movie, he cackles madly, uses his varying tones to great effect, and even hisses, all of it very similar to what he did in ROTS. You may see a problem, but I dont.

I have to say that like Vympel and others, I didn't find Palpatine's behavior strange (for him) or out of character at all. Hell, I would've been disappointed if McDiarmid didn't chew at least a little scenery; his performance was probably my favorite thing in the movie. That's not to say that the theory of "focusing techniques" isn't necessarily valid.

Although Stravo, at your suggestion I attempted to anger myself and was able to drive myself into a rage fairly easily, and I imagine if it would've been even easier if I had an actual physical enemy in front of me to focus upon. But maybe that says more about me than anything else.

perhaps Palpatine's power is such that he leeches off the anger of others for his power, as opposed to focusing his own. Just a thought.

Stravo wrote:It

Tyrannus was a taunter: "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me." "I am more powerful than any Jedi." "Good, twice the power double the fall." He drew his strength from his rage as he looked down at those whom he thought he surpassed and taunted them, acting as his focus for his rage. Not only was Dooku smarter but wittier too.

Nitpick: "Twice the pride double the fall."


As to Palpatine, I'd agree on first viewing it was rather annoying. On second viewing It just appeared as if he was completely nuts.

True Palpatine was insane, but then again most of the lunatics in Star Wars are great fun (HK-47 for example)