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How come the Jedi can't win without using the dark side? What's the point then?

They can. Obi vs Anakin comes to mind.

Malecoda wrote:How come the Jedi can't win without using the dark side? What's the point then?

I am not sure if I follow your question. Obi-Wan defeated Anakin presumably without using the dark side. Are you refering to battles between Jedi/Dark Jedi or the effectiveness of Jedi overall? Jedi seemed to be doing quite well in the battles in AOTC after all. Luke defeated the Rancor and Jabba's group fairly easily as well.

I don't know if this applies, but it is mentioned in Shatterpoint what the 'Shroud of the Dark Side' actually does. It has no effect on the Force in the immediate area, thus combat precognition and Force-boosted reflexes are not alterd. But it prohibits long range Force scanning and far future precognition and any other power that has a range. So whenever a Jedi uses a long-range power he must dip into the Dark Side.

On another point (an alterate understanding to you question) is that WAR in and of itself is a Dark Side thing. For the Jedi to have fought in the war means they are actually enerzing the Dark Side.

I'm not really sure this helps, but oh well.

What I think he's going for is that most of the time Jedi have defeated Sith in the films, they've given into Anger at least a little bit.


Obi Wan v.s. Maul, was angry at onset because of Qui-Gon's death
Anakin v.s. Dooku, vengeance for the previous duel and the loss of his hand
Windu v.s. Palpatine, Windu's style has been described to skirt the darkside (or so I'm told)
Luke v.s. Vader, anger at Vader's taunts to convert Leia.

infact, I can only think of two duels that are an exception in which Jedi won without succumbing to their aggression even a little bit: Yoda v.s. Dooku and ObiWan v.s. Anakin

Captain Cyran wrote:Actually, that was one of the things I didn't like about the Yoda/Dooku fight. Besides the whole Yoda actually needing to use a lightsaber to fight Dooku. But something I really loved about the series is that the Jedi always needed to tap into that darker part of their nature to win out against the Sith. And then the Yoda Dooku fight happens. All in all it was visually appealing but a let down in my eyes.

The most powerful jedi in existence being only moderately more powerful than a 'fresh' second level Sith lord looks like a let down .

In terms of knowledge, experience, power, skill Yoda was superior to Dooku.

the .303 bookworm wrote:

Captain Cyran wrote:Actually, that was one of the things I didn't like about the Yoda/Dooku fight. Besides the whole Yoda actually needing to use a lightsaber to fight Dooku. But something I really loved about the series is that the Jedi always needed to tap into that darker part of their nature to win out against the Sith. And then the Yoda Dooku fight happens. All in all it was visually appealing but a let down in my eyes.

The most powerful jedi in existence being only moderately more powerful than a 'fresh' second level Sith lord looks like a let down .

In terms of knowledge, experience, power, skill Yoda was superior to Dooku.

What I'm saying is he shouldn't have fought at all. It should have been left to Obi-Wan or Anakin, especially Anakin, to flip out and force Dooku to back down. In my eyes that would have been much better than seeing Yoda be a squirrel on steroids and win without taping into the dark side. But as I said before, I was a big fan of the Jedi having to tap into the dark side in order to beat a sith.