StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I’m not alledging it, but according to an article on Borsk Fey’lya I read on Wikipedia, “Fey'lya openly attacked Ackbar. During the attempt to secure the Katana fleet, he revealed he had no qualms about letting soldiers die, if they didn't support his politics. These two actions cost him a great deal of support, and it would be years before his career was the same. Never the less, Fey'lya should not be considered evil or corrupt. He is simply a typical Bothan.”

Doesn’t that seem rather racist? Of course, the article might just be bs, since another article on Bothans describes them as “eager to advance their personal power any way that they can. They are also brave, and loyal to those they care about” . But if an entire race is normally crafty and manipulative, then… what?


Please don’t flame me.

To answer the specific point about Bothans, its their culture, brought up to persue power and influence.

Ah yes, the classic "aliens are one noters" brain bug creeping into SW EU... ugh.

Since have stuff like Nemodian warriors, it's safe to say that these are generaliaztions typically based on the culture of said species.

Tiger Ace wrote:To answer the specific point about Bothans, its their culture, brought up to persue power and influence.

Which is so totally disimilar to humans, NOT. It's odd when you read of alien species known for their byzantine politics. Don't these nimrods know what the fucking word means?

It would of been better if it said that Fey'lya was a typical career politician and that his actions were self serving and ultimatly evil. But no, it's one note aliens we go.

We call this 'genetic determinism' in real life and it's just as stupid a concept. You're not responsiable for your actions it's just your DNA. Thanks for the total shedding of any sense of responsiability there!

dworkin wrote:

Tiger Ace wrote:To answer the specific point about Bothans, its their culture, brought up to persue power and influence.

Which is so totally disimilar to humans, NOT. It's odd when you read of alien species known for their byzantine politics. Don't these nimrods know what the fucking word means?

It would of been better if it said that Fey'lya was a typical career politician and that his actions were self serving and ultimatly evil. But no, it's one note aliens we go.

We call this 'genetic determinism' in real life and it's just as stupid a concept. You're not responsiable for your actions it's just your DNA. Thanks for the total shedding of any sense of responsiability there!

well thankfully, it's not like in Star Trek were for all intents and purposes your species definies your personality. Sure most known members of the species fall in a certain type of personality, but oddly we examples like the Nemodian Warrior in LoE, who basically give Gen Grievous a big ugly "fuck you" when he tries to enter the bridge of the Trade Fedaration flagship without premission, doesn't sound like actions of species that are utter cowards, does it?

Dworkin, The EU dodges the One-Note alien in the Bthans case with Asyr Seilar in the X-wing novels.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I’m not alledging it, but according to an article on Borsk Fey’lya I read on Wikipedia, “Fey'lya openly attacked Ackbar. During the attempt to secure the Katana fleet, he revealed he had no qualms about letting soldiers die, if they didn't support his politics. These two actions cost him a great deal of support, and it would be years before his career was the same. Never the less, Fey'lya should not be considered evil or corrupt. He is simply a typical Bothan.”

Doesn’t that seem rather racist? Of course, the article might just be bs, since another article on Bothans describes them as “eager to advance their personal power any way that they can. They are also brave, and loyal to those they care about” . But if an entire race is normally crafty and manipulative, then… what?

The people in the Star Wars galaxy who make that assumption would be racist, but it's not as if one should expect that racism has been eliminated in the Star Wars galaxy. There are no doubt many people in the Star Wars galaxy who would be racist, and those kinds of lines reflect their views.

Darth Wong wrote:The people in the Star Wars galaxy who make that assumption would be racist, but it's not as if one should expect that racism has been eliminated in the Star Wars galaxy. There are no doubt many people in the Star Wars galaxy who would be racist, and those kinds of lines reflect their views.

Racism or speciesism (as correct term is) is indeed present in SW galaxy.

So, you mean that Bothans aren't all cunning or all brave and loyal, in "reality", but they're just viewed that way by specieists?

Tiger Ace wrote:Dworkin, The EU dodges the One-Note alien in the Bthans case with Asyr Seilar in the X-wing novels.

Never saw it in the EU material I read, then again I gave up pretty quick.

I recall reading about slimy sneaky bothan this, slimy sneaky bothan that.

Perhaps they won't devolve into one note cultures but I'm not holding my breath.

dworkin wrote:

Tiger Ace wrote:Dworkin, The EU dodges the One-Note alien in the Bthans case with Asyr Seilar in the X-wing novels.

Never saw it in the EU material I read, then again I gave up pretty quick.

I recall reading about slimy sneaky bothan this, slimy sneaky bothan that.

Perhaps they won't devolve into one note cultures but I'm not holding my breath.

Bothan Trest Kre'fey is prominent in the earlier NJO books, and he's an admiral, and a competant one at that.

Who later becomes Supreme Commander at the end of the NJO IIRC, then there is Grinder, a Bothan Pilot in Wraith Squadron, despite being a bit of an oily character he died bravely destroying an ISD from the inside, inspite of Wedges orders, and refusing to leave a squad mate behind.

Oddly enough, do we see any canon examples of Imperial Racism?

There is the "Where are you taking this... thing" line from ANH, but it's possible that the man had never seen a Wookie before.

Setzer wrote:Oddly enough, do we see any canon examples of Imperial Racism?

There is the "Where are you taking this... thing" line from ANH, but it's possible that the man had never seen a Wookie before.

When Thrawn is introduced, there is a great deal of suprise that he could rise to such a rank. This coupled with the very minimal number of aliens in the Empire, and several references on the official site's database to Imperial prejudice (and in other source books).

Darth Wong wrote:

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I’m not alledging it, but according to an article on Borsk Fey’lya I read on Wikipedia, “Fey'lya openly attacked Ackbar. During the attempt to secure the Katana fleet, he revealed he had no qualms about letting soldiers die, if they didn't support his politics. These two actions cost him a great deal of support, and it would be years before his career was the same. Never the less, Fey'lya should not be considered evil or corrupt. He is simply a typical Bothan.”

Doesn’t that seem rather racist? Of course, the article might just be bs, since another article on Bothans describes them as “eager to advance their personal power any way that they can. They are also brave, and loyal to those they care about” . But if an entire race is normally crafty and manipulative, then… what?

The people in the Star Wars galaxy who make that assumption would be racist, but it's not as if one should expect that racism has been eliminated in the Star Wars galaxy. There are no doubt many people in the Star Wars galaxy who would be racist, and those kinds of lines reflect their views.

The problem is that this sort of racism seems to be being expressed by the narrator(s) of these works, not individual characters within them. If we assume they are omniscient, then I guess these aliens really are "one noters..." or something.

Isn't that a problem? Or do we just assume the "historical document" was written by some racist...?

Star Trek tried to paint aliens as being stupid, ignorant or otherwise inferior because of their "culture" (that was monolithic of course). Once exposed to (human dominated) StarFleet "culture" they became englightened (and then outcasts to their "native culture"). So we have a few "good alien" individuals, with the majority of the aliens in a species being totally predictable because they're all alike (but humans aren't, of course).

I know you've commented on this before, and it annoys me too, but what are we to make of omniscient "racist" narrators?

Setzer wrote:Oddly enough, do we see any canon examples of Imperial Racism?

There is the "Where are you taking this... thing" line from ANH, but it's possible that the man had never seen a Wookie before.

EU. Lots of Imperial racisim there.
Though one of the books has it "We don't see them as non citizens, we just see ourselves as superior". I belive that was Isard.

Speciesism is common place in the SW galaxy, almost every species has a problem with at least one of the others. For instance the Quarrens have a problem with the Mon Cals who they share a planet with.

The example of Borsk Fey'la going after Ackbar is put down to Bothan politics (common backblading to get ahead). The idea of Bothans being slimy and untrustworthy comes from the fact that there is an extensive Bothan spy network.

No, it's because their society works like that, it's not a race thing, it's a sociological issue.

Kurgan wrote:The problem is that this sort of racism seems to be being expressed by the narrator(s) of these works, not individual characters within them. If we assume they are omniscient, then I guess these aliens really are "one noters..." or something.

Well, I've always sort of regarded the EU works as stories told from the perspective of people living in the New Republic, so that doesn't bother me. I suppose that if you regard the story narrator as being a perfectly impartial omniscient being, that becomes more problematic. Certainly, the writers of many EU books are guilty of very simple-minded thinking.

Isn't that a problem? Or do we just assume the "historical document" was written by some racist...?

Why not?

Star Trek tried to paint aliens as being stupid, ignorant or otherwise inferior because of their "culture" (that was monolithic of course). Once exposed to (human dominated) StarFleet "culture" they became englightened (and then outcasts to their "native culture"). So we have a few "good alien" individuals, with the majority of the aliens in a species being totally predictable because they're all alike (but humans aren't, of course).

I know you've commented on this before, and it annoys me too, but what are we to make of omniscient "racist" narrators?

Omniscient != perfect impartiality

Kurgan wrote:The problem is that this sort of racism seems to be being expressed by the narrator(s) of these works, not individual characters within them. If we assume they are omniscient, then I guess these aliens really are "one noters..." or something.

Isn't that a problem? Or do we just assume the "historical document" was written by some racist...?

Star Trek tried to paint aliens as being stupid, ignorant or otherwise inferior because of their "culture" (that was monolithic of course). Once exposed to (human dominated) StarFleet "culture" they became englightened (and then outcasts to their "native culture"). So we have a few "good alien" individuals, with the majority of the aliens in a species being totally predictable because they're all alike (but humans aren't, of course).

I know you've commented on this before, and it annoys me too, but what are we to make of omniscient "racist" narrators?

well as treat them as historical documents, it really ain't a problem(as historical document aren't immune to racisim or other effect of POV of the author/narrator).